Thread regarding SAP layoffs

Why there are attacks and fishing for information on a layoff board...

Folks, if you're wondering why the heck the posts on this SAP layoff board (and Oracle's) have veered way off layoffs and turned into a dump of mean-spirited accusations, distortions, and attempts to fish for information, keep this in mind. There are a number of "research" groups that just try to collect information via attacks under the appearances of good intentions and sell it to those with not so good intentions. A "research group" like Brightwork for example, which seems to be often mentioned on this SAP board (and Oracle's too) is collecting information on SAP and Oracle (and they collect on these companies only), tries to say it's unbiased independent research, when it then provides paid competitive intelligence services and sells the information to other companies (e.g. Workday) who they don't cover. Then you have an endless loop of these research people and their paid customers posting back and forth on claims and referring to this "research". So, there are a lot of people trying to make a business out of this...

There's no problem with free speech of course, but some people might consider this kind of arrangement as having questionable professional ethics. Some might not. I just wish it had more to do with people and less than attacks...since it's a layoff board with people trying to help each other.

The fine print:

"Brightwork does provide competitive intelligence work to vendors as part of its business"

https://www.brightworkresearch.com/saaseconomy/2019/01/04/how-to-understand-the-bias-of-reporting-on-commercial-vendors-embracing-cloud/

Disclaimer: My bias is I'm an SAP employee who found a role after reorg and still has a positive view of SAP. This board has been helpful and thanks for the insights...and I don't mind rants. I totally get that people can be disheartened and frustrated after something like this. It happened to me 10 years ago in another company where I was laid off with zero warning and zero severance or any other benefits...

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Post ID: @OP+YCI56td

18 replies (most recent on top)

Brightworks simply provides an opinion, actually an unsubstantiated opinion with zero references to back up their claims. "We will cover this in an upcoming article" or "In our book we speak to xyz". That's not research. It's opinion with an emotional overlay. This guy is a total hack. One comment says he predicted the failure of Leonardo. So what? When you predict every product is a failure, you are bound to be right at least once. Don't waste your time on their unintelligible mumbo jumbo.

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Post ID: @7Pnul+YCI56td

Brightwork does not sell information from message boards on SAP and Oracle. How would that even work? The information on the public message board is available for anyone to see. You seem to have a poor understanding of what type of information is sellable.

Brightwork is a real research group. There is no need to use quotation marks. The fact that Brightwork contradicts your employer does not make the information, not research. The reason that SAP resources undermine SAP's research is that it fact checks SAP. In contrast, virtually every other entity that covers SAP is paid by SAP (ComputerWorld, IDG, Gartner, Forrester, etc..) Please try to deny that every source on SAP except Brightwork is paid by SAP. Do undisclosed payment to entities that publish on SAP meet your definition of "research." Do you find it curious that the one entity that publishes on SAP that you have a problem with is the one that takes no money from SAP? Is that a good design you think...where everyone is on SAP's payroll – and then multi-billion dollar consulting companies also repeat anything that SAP says? I bet you think the coverage that SAP gets from ComputerWeekly or TechTarget is just dandy don't you? You should, SAP paid for it.

Even if Brightwork's main business was selling much competitive intelligence business, which it isn't, that does not constitute financial bias. Financial bias is publishing information while being paid to do so (check the entities already mentioned.) See the bias regarding a directly paid article from SAP here http://example.com/2BlUrUK.

Brightwork, in fact, has historically very little involvement with vendors and recently introduced a policy of having no relationship whatsoever with vendors. http://example.com/2RgaFHr

The competitive intelligence business of Brightwork was always very small and will probably be non-existent in the future, but not because there is any conflict. In our experience vendors lack the understanding even to take advantage of competitive intelligence, and it is overall just a bad business.

That is also not true that people are making a business out of competitive intelligence. You can't name a single company that has a business around competitive intelligence for vendors. Most vendors rely on their own internal competitive intelligence groups.

Given the enormous lies told by SAP, the underhanded nature of the SAP and SAP partnership and the lies told by SAP consulting companies to their clients, the idea that a firm providing competitive intelligence is unethical is as ridiculous as it gets. Secondly, the articles are not attacks. They are fact checking. However, fact-checking tends to trigger SAP resources because so many SAP resources live in a self-reinforcing bubble that they are uncomfortable with being challenged. SAP resources have on several occasions, tried to warn others from reading the articles as we cover in the article http://example.com/2VctRtQ. The reason is simple, SAP resources do not want the articles read. All truth is found at sap.com. "The bestest and most accurate website ever."

Secondly, naturally, as an SAP employee, you will find Brightwork's coverage of SAP problematic. It makes your job more difficult. However, as a person with a 100% financial bias in favor of SAP, you are in a bad position to accuse others of having a financial bias. Brightwork wrote an article that covers the problem of financial bias hypocrisy. http://example.com/2s7PChUc You work for a company that makes $24 billion per year selling an enormous amount of poorly functioning software. And you don't care because its how you make your money.

Brightwork takes no money from any vendor, and the competitive intelligence business, which is not a conflict as is it only performing analysis of vendors, is so tiny Brightwork does not even bother marketing it anymore.

You have made a number of incorrect claims. And your main objective is to smear Brightwork Research & Analysis so that no one reads the material because you don't want to address the conclusions brought up in BR&A articles.

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Post ID: @4qakt+YCI56td

This is humorous. Seems this post hit a bright works nerve. Where there is smoke.... And I wholeheartedly agree, Bright-works only mission is to slam SAP it seems with no understanding of the technology. It is biased and does not give a fair reflection of the true state of the technology.

To get to the point, I am an ex-SAP employee, who got layed off, and all I can say the partner landscape is booming, there are plenty of projects out there that will be happy to use ex SAP guys. I got a good payout and had zero gap in employment.

All big companies retrench at some point, there will always be casualties. I did not take it personally, you have to roll with the punches, adapt and survive. You do your best until the powers that be decide you are no longer needed.

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Post ID: @5hbw+YCI56td

So it's okay for you to create a post criticizing Brightwork but when Brightwork posts a response, you still criticize them for posting!

Do you even see how narrow-minded you are?

No wonder Brightwork keeps mopping the floor with SAP.

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Post ID: @4pxh+YCI56td

So we got Workday being Workday and a shout from Brightworks...all makes more sense. Happy Easter!

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Post ID: @3kav+YCI56td

The comment about selling comments about SAP or Oracle to other vendors is not true. The only competitive research that Brightwork Research & Analysis has ever done is comparison services. If a vendor wants to know how S/4HANA for instance compares to their ERP system we can tell them. We tell other vendors what parts of SAP or Oracle's products work and which don't, their maturity level, etc.. We provide this same information to buyers.

Its very difficult to see how this is a conflict of interest. Naturally, SAP or Oracle would like people to think this, because we are one of the only entities that publish on these firms that is also not financially connected to these firms. SAP pays off most of the IT media entities and IT analysts and does not disclose this information and the commenter thinks that the corruption lays with Brightwork Research & Analysis? I see.

We know SAP and Oracle and we know how they market. Are we not allowed to sell our domain expertise and research to competing vendors? What rule of research is that breaking exactly?

In fact, the entire business model explained regarding fishing information is completely unknown to us, and we question whether the commenter has any idea how one could make money from this. Is the idea that we would be able to sell comments to competing vendors? How would we do that? It sounds like a completely infeasible business model. When vendors buy off a media outlet or research entity, they make a direct payment to the entity, and that entity publishes something flattering about them. See the Forrester article on HANA' fake TCO as an example. http://example.com/2FW3Ree

The real problem is that SAP does not have very many good answers for our research. We routinely beat SAP resources in debates in LinkedIn and people are beginning to realize that SAP distributes large amount of false information, as we covered in our accuracy study of SAP. http://example.com/2CJtEpi

Since they can't debate the facts, they simply come up with any zany idea to discredit the source. Other things SAP resources have tried is that we are too small. So this is just the latest one added to the list. Is it not a bit curious that the one research entity not on SAP's payroll is the one entity that SAP calls out as unacceptable?

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Post ID: @2nfn+YCI56td

Guys this is a layoffs site. Why are you posting about Brightwork here? What does Brightwork have to do with SAP layoffs? If you work for SAP and have a problem with Brightwork, go post on their website or something. Why come here to talk about them????

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Post ID: @2lnr+YCI56td

I don’t know why there are suddenly so many trolls to the sap lay-off site here too. I am inclined to think it’s SAP hiring people to dilute the real content and discussion points. Or people who just have too much time, and don’t even give others space to air their views.

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Post ID: @2tvs+YCI56td

I think you made the point completely...Workday is trolling on this SAP layoff board. Thank you!

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Post ID: @2vdm+YCI56td

I'm a SAP employee and Brightworks guys are my heros for telling the truth! High respect!

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Post ID: @2var+YCI56td

Are you accusing Brightwork of selling competitive intelligence or producing biased content?

They can't do both because companies that pay for competitive intelligence ask to see sources.

Maybe they are biased? Unlike SAP people who are objective?

Everyone is biased. The difference is that some are much better than others.

Why don't you put them in their place? Post a counter-argument to show them wrong and shut them up. It's easy. Go to their website or LinkedIn posts and start showing your competence. If they are wrong, prove them wrong instead of hiding and crying in the shadows here.

But since you're b--ching about them here, we both know you can't confront them. So shut up.

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Post ID: @1pvc+YCI56td

So these guys just make up stuff and get paid for it by the likes of Workday?

Workday is doing really well.

Growing 50% YoY and replacing SAP at Walmart, BP, and Sanofi.

Maybe SAP should hire them instead of crying over lost customers.

Pathetic.

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Post ID: @1cfb+YCI56td

Are you suggesting that Workday is beating SAP because of Brightwork?

I am ex-SAP and now I work for Workday. Never heard of this Brightwork.

Who needs them when we can visit the layoff and glassdoor to read what employees have to say.

Stop blaming others for your incompetence and lack of experience.

We are taking away the biggest SAP customers everyday because all the experienced SAP people left and work for other companies like Workday and Salesforce. Even the head of SAP cloud left for Google. The ones left graduated from college 4 years ago and can't hold a conversation with a CxO in their mid 50's. SAP is brain-drained. Period.

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Post ID: @1wqa+YCI56td

Sounds like a Brightwork ad. Anyone can pretend to be whoever they want and post whatever garbage they want anonymously on here. Linking to one-sided research doesn't raise credibility. With that said I think there can be some good HR info and discussion on here and obviously anonymity is important.

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Post ID: @1wvl+YCI56td

Why would Workday pay for Internet comments? You think Workday folks can't read?

If you mean Brightwork provides "analysis", then that's different than "collecting information".

Yes, they provide great industry analysis but not only on SAP and Oracle as you falsely claimed.

Here's their vendor comparison between SAP, AWS, and IBM as an example:

https://www.brightworkresearch.com/ahmedazmi/2019/01/03/our-iot-platform-review-of-sap-ibm-and-aws/

Some of their research is completely original. Here's an example of their "analysis" of the SAP and Oracle latest layoffs compared. They provide information in there that I couldn't find anywhere else including this site!

https://www.brightworkresearch.com/ahmedazmi/2019/03/31/what-is-different-about-the-q1-2019-sap-and-oracle-layoffs/

By the way, these guys actually predicted SAP Leonardo's failure back in 2017. SAP is now quietly replacing Leonardo and selling Azure IoT to SAP customers instead.

Here's the Microsoft announcement:

https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/mwc-2019-azure-iot-customers-partners-accelerate-innovation-from-cloud-to-edge/

and here's a summary from Microsoft's site:

"The SAP Leonardo IoT will leverage Azure IoT services, including Azure IoT Hub and Azure IoT Edge, to provide access to market leading secure connectivity, powerful Device Management functionality and a global scale data ingestion engine."

My company builds mobile IoT apps for appliance manufacturers so I know this is true.

Brightwork covers almost every vendor in the software industry. Look at their vendor ratings page for yourself:

https://www.brightworkresearch.com/softwaredecisions/honest-vendor-ratings/

My advice, let SAP competitive intelligence department know about Brightwork. I am sure they can handle a small research company that's collecting then selling internet comments :)

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Post ID: @1nsl+YCI56td

There are good and there are bad posts here. I think I am perfectly capable of weeding out junk and fake narrative.

As a sum, this site with all biased stuff still beats, quality wise, my facebook feed which is continuously clogged with junk, self promo, promo and other distractions.

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Post ID: @1wai+YCI56td

More lay-off is coming, you will find how your perspective changes.

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Post ID: @wiv+YCI56td

To begin with, Brightworks is not the point of reference here. Reputable research houses are like Gartner, and those in the know, will know Gartner has a good vendor-customer relationship with SAP. This is a lay-off website. We are just interested to hear what other employees talk about instead of veering off this false sign post of a discussion around Brickworks. I am beginning to think SAP paid people to post unrelated matters in this blog.

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Post ID: @pnj+YCI56td

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