If you look at the job openings, more than half of the jobs in US are in technology the rest are in other lob. This is going to be rough
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for those that insist on BRDs, if they cannot get on board, why not let them be the ones getting laid off? if it is the lifers, and those people that instead of waiting around and insisting on a document that cannot realistically answer all of the questions, then lets get rid of them in favor of those folks that are actually going to talk to our business and customers. no disagreement that we (tech) need to understand but why rely on nonsense documents.
Uh yeah, @1chd+18Cojr3R. I was doing it in 1989 to 2000. We laughed when the name came out. What we are talking about here is the 5 year Agile business fad that is anything but Agile.
Per previous post, can the Indians do this too? Or is this all in the states
Internal websites are not the highly paid developers people here are referring to. Those internal sites usually aren’t where development dollars go. So something minimally viable should suffice for something internally used. The stuff that happens in the backend, that’s where the higher cost of development exists, the stuff most people do not see (or understand) but reports “results” to the front end. Consider the backend the thing that basically allows any company scale from 1M users to 1B users in a matter of minutes without having to rewrite code, adapt algorithms related to fraud, loan approvals and risk. Backends need to persistently store data in a consistent and compliant manner, and provide accessible reporting systems that doesn’t break the overall system. Also, one must keep in mind security and, yes, coding does have security practices on top on infra and app access. This is just a small speckle of what backend developers need to address, beyond being business aligned.
Also, anything external facing, like consumer apps, corporate website, or partner/B2B API/apps, will also require a large developer investment too.
The front end of an internal app, depending on what it’s doing, may not require $150-300k developers. Most of the developer investment will be focused on re-designing our systems to scale and be agile enough to compete with modern competitors and be modular enough to break into other makers.
If WFC pays so much for programmers, why are all of our internal sites so ridiculously user-unfriendly? Seriously, every new site comes with a 10+ page PDF showing people how to use it. It's horrible design, and it's not just old stuff, it's new/updated internal sites as well. I'm all for paying people top dollar when they produce top results, but I'm not seeing it. Maybe on the customer facing side of things, but internal? Not even close.
earlier in these posts, someone said all the developer and tech jobs are going to india, did you factor this in?
At least 3 different teams on the tech side have insisted on BRDs just within the last 90 days, my project happens to consist of dozens of application teams, some are fully Agile and some cannot let go of Waterfall.
I am obviously not going to give you their names but these are people with the title “Sr. Software Engineer”, but I would have been more than happy to skip the paperwork.
This is a big bank, just because people in your immediate orbit don’t operate this way is not an indication that it doesn’t happen.
And policy for PMs changed a while ago to allow JIRA extracts in lieu of the Planning phase documents, so stop blaming PMs, most of us would be thrilled to knock back paperwork, free up capacity in favor of getting more done.
As a developer, I am generally interested in the BRD’s as well as the PRD. Both documents should be managed by a PM or some type of BDM.
Now developing code and choosing your cloud infra are one thing but if you’re not actually creating things that actually align to business or regulatory requirements than the dev team can be marching towards a cliff. I personally like understanding the details of his businesses operate. yes it’s complicated, messy, and highly archaic but the reasons behind this, from what I’ve gathered so far, is a result of many (changing) federal/banking rules over the years, creating a messy layer cake of discernible code.
Seeing all this and understanding how and where things change, helps me and my team figure out a better strategy to write code in a manner that is easier to read, and can adapt quickly when the Fed or banking requirements change and, most importantly, code base won’t bloat as nearly as bad as what we have today.
It’s a lot of work but coding and developing the infra is just one part, we have to know the business specific details to confirm design choices and to make trade off determinations
Here are the salaries Wells is using for new Tech hires:
https://salarysurfer.cccco.edu/Salaries.aspx
Some of the lifers will surprise you. There are people who want to be given a full unambiguous document so can tuck themselves away in their coding cubbyhole, snarl at any intruders, and emerge three years later with something unsuitable to business needs, because that’s what the BRD told them to do.
Who on the technical teams demand BRDs? It’s the PMs that are blindly requiring it. OR, it is the engineering managers which are trying to stay compliant with the dumb systems that we conform to. Show me 1 technical scrum team that actually DEMANDS on an approved BRD?
The change request process is demanded again by the PMP’s in the company, not the technical teams.
so that means this Facebook Resource, if they were Senior there and they said they are making more, this means they are at 600k annual as the SR dev salary there adds up to 500k. Seems fishy. Plus we are not sure if it is male or female even. Does it even exist?
Maybe it was the Facebook Secretary, we need more tech secretaries here, maybe even a Tech Secretary lead?
I’m a PM
I would love it if all the application teams I work with were Agile and the business could just add user stories to a persistent backlog. Change requests are awful, but dev teams love to demand them, it buys time.
I’m not standing in the way of that, various technical teams who demand approved BRDs up front are the biggest roadblock. They appear to be getting dragged away from that kicking and screaming, easily 5 full years later than similar institutions.
Ultimately the PM job should vanish on all but the biggest projects in favor of product owners and scrum masters. But the technical teams better hope the business thins the herd on the product people, way too many with their own little kingdoms.
Only at WF would a twenty year old development methodology be dismissed as a five year management fad. It is a simple concept. You engage the stakeholders from the beginning and you deliver multiple iterations of the finished project, making incremental improvements until you are done, with the stakeholder able to influence requirements during the process. If you don’t have requirements, you are doing it wrong.
Guy us a gender neutral reference. Damn dude.
https://www.thelayoff.com/p/@lcp+18Cojr3R
Agile has nothing to do with “agility”. Agile is a 5 year old project management fad, a new way to organize a project team and has a very mixed track record, to put it charitably. It kind of dispenses with bureaucracy, design and requirements with the assumption that this all can happen in over the cubicle wall discussion. It’s great for long term cohesive teams, but generally becomes a hiding place for traditional PMs to hide out and gum up the works.
So, a guy from Facebook joined your team a few weeks back, had gender reassignment and you then asked her why she came here and she said they are paying her a lot more than at FB?
@qqc+18Cojr3R I have a guy from Facebook join my team a few weeks back. I asked her why she came here and she said they are paying her a lot more than at FB. Get a Computer Science degree and you can see a salary jump of 3 times.
Time to bring back Webb Edwards, Victor Nicols and Martin Davis to resurrect WF Technology
I may not have understood this completely, but my close friend works in IT at WFA. Super good guy, started here out of college, and has stayed here too long. He said the technology is now so old and outdated that it’s very difficult to hire anyone who knows how to work on it. And, unfortunately for him, it would be difficult to get on at another company because no good company worth leaving for has the old systems we still have, which is all that he knows how to work on.
I don’t see how that can ever be turned around. It would seem like we need at least one tech innovator at the top of the chain.
Post ID: @lcp+18Cojr3R
I appreciate your honest answer. What do you think that says about the future of technology at Wells Fargo? (Exceptional people but hamstrung from the top, bureaucracy which prevents you from being taken seriously when you report an issue, etc).
It sounds like the problem is lack of agility, as another commentator said. Perhaps the real problem is that no matter how many talented people we hire, it won’t matter if you continue to be hamstrung from the top. I would think the talented will eventually become frustrated and leave. Even under Charlie, Wells is never going to be forward-thinking, limber, or be willing to invest the real money needed for technology.
But I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.
To add to the last poster, most of the problems Technology has are nontechnical in nature. They’re people with a monolithic behemoth of a project where they refuse to change anything because they’re on a two year release cycle and no requirements can change. They’re people who refuse to standardize on the same tech stack as the rest of the division, because their department has always been allowed to do their own thing and they see no reason to change. They’re people who refuse to automate labor-intensive processes that could be replaced with a Python script, because that would cost jobs. They’re frozen in time, but it’s not just about Java vs React/Node/Angular. My boss’s boss wants to move forward but my boss is digging in. This could be a bumpy ride.
@evs+18Cojr3R, you have some points, but at the same time, you better hope you don't get layed off or you will be in trouble.
I see this as a career ending position for those in technology. My choice is to get a new role week 1 of Jan. Market is still great in tech so is a fast turn around to a new tech role based on if your skills are current or very close. Companies are desperately trying to get tech workers with current skills. That means coding/strong scripting. No people that can only push paper or who's skills are obsolete. I would say if Wells wants to survive it will change to match every other company in the United States.
The era has come that everything is code, even infrastructure (except at Wells Fargo)
You don’t need to be some sort of supposed tech innovator from MS or elsewhere to be exceptional. I’ve met plenty of people extremely talented staff here at Wells. IT is simply hamstrung here from the top. The regulations and bureaucracies that prevent me from being taken seriously when I report an issue along with the fix to Engineering are the same ones that prevent me from working on that fix in the first place.
We have two choices. Leave for another opportunity or pick and choose when to swim against the current. I take the latter option, if I leave I’m sure I could increase my take home 10-20% but at the expense of working twice as hard and I am far too lazy to do that right now.
The truly talented technologists want to work for agile companies where they can advance their skills, not a dinosaur like Wells Fargo. The best Wells Fargo is going to get is other companies’ IT rejects. I can’t think of anything Wells can do to change that at this point. There is not enough money to warrant falling behind in your career, even if it’s just a couple years.
I just read MIT’s List of 35 Innovators Under 35 for 2020. FYI - none of them work here.
I just looked at a list of the 50 Most Innovative Companies in the World. FYI - we’re not on it.
That’s like a chef leaving The French Laundry to work at IHOP.
Why would anyone, with any real talent in the tech world, quit their job to come to work for Wells Fargo? We are cutting costs, cutting jobs, offshoring jobs, can’t grow. We are known for ancient pieced-together technology, lack of innovation, inability to get things done, greedy stodgy executives, frustrated employees and a toxic culture.
The truly talented IT people are already employed, so WHO is going to leave a Microsoft or a Google to come work here? That’s like a doctor leaving the Mayo Clinic to work in a Walgreens Walk-In Clinic.
@min+18Cojr3R, "opportunity to learn the codes that programmers type in and now I code and am a respected software" -
what code are you typing in and what type of software are you?
I disagree. Tech at Wells is state of the art. As a former Teller, i welcomed the opportunity to learn the codes that programmers type in and now I code and am a respected software. Don’t stop believing.
Your not kidding me, this place is far behind behind and the current people block any and all progress. Middle management is a huge blocker too.
Anyways I got a job in one of the FAANG companies, but i have fallen so far behind working here will do all i can to get back to current times in Tech. So I am having to work double time to come current to get ready for this one.
Planning to lay off because as much as folks complain about old tech, the current people aren’t going to cut it to bring us up to date. This ain’t new, just that Wells Fargo is just slow and late to the game.
they need to do something, but still no results; results matter, posting jobs is useless
Also why are they planning to lay off most of the TEch Dept? Is it cause they have the wrong skills to do these jobs?
I mean yea. I saw some other post about how even the most anti tech jobs are now requiring some technical expertise. Nothing new here.