Thread regarding IBM layoffs

IBM just mandated that all IBM U.S. employees need to be fully vaccinated by December 8, 2021, in order to continue to work at IBM. The shot is required even if you have natural immunity from a prior COVID infection.

Many people were mouthing on this thread about how that would violate medical privacy laws or how it violates international law or how vaccines were too new and unsafe/unproven etc etc.

Well.. IBM has laid down its law. Time has come to put your money where your mouth was. Any of you ready to quit your job?

Land entry for non-citizens closed.

I just flew back from England after having to go there for business. The USA border is definitely not wide open. Our plane 787 (United) had a 23% occupancy rate. The only folks on board were USA citizens and green card holders. All had to prove vaccination when they entered customs. SO your statement “the borders are wide open is pure BS” Let’s look at the state dept leader board
Entry from Europe Closed
Entry from India Closed
Entry from Brazil / South America closed
Entry from Africa Closed

Yep Wide open

One irony of this discussion is that IBM was involved in the creation of the New York State vaccination passport:

https://covid19vaccine.health.ny.gov/excelsior-pass

I live in New York state, and it is a bit clunky the first time through, but actually seems to work pretty well, and I took a relative through more recently, and they have improved it further. You get an App on your phone that shows the vaccine status and a little bar-code/pattern for the checking App. Or a printed bar-code/pattern for your wallet. Not a perfect system, but I have to say, after having to deal with some pretty bad internal IBM software, and some also abysmal NYS sites, I was surprised how well this all worked. So a "good-job" to those involved at IBM.

If covid is so dangerous why does the pres have the border wide open?
(stop typing spaz, you cannot deny this fact)

It's no wonder why so many will not be getting this shot.
Who could blame them

I would say the decision has been made

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/google-requires-employees-covid-vaccine_n_61019289e4b0048f36191c38

Just don't tell IBM you got vaccinated.

They can just let the ones who don't want to get vaccinated to wfh.
Problem solved. All the sheep can go into the office with their masks.
Have fun!

The short answer is that it is pretty much established case law that an employer can require employees to be vaccinated as a condition of employment. There need to be accommodations for various health or religious exceptions, but that is about it.

The longer answer is that it is currently complicated by various states that have passed laws about not requiring vaccines or outlawing various vaccine passports, most of these are expected to be struck down, but the courts are moving pretty slowly. Some states and cities are encouraging employers to require vaccinations. So a lot of what IBM ultimately does may be a factor of what state you are in, and what level of accommodations they can reasonably take. This probably represents quite a quandary for IBM, as where they have crowded plants, the older ones with inadequate ventilation, or the newer ones with big open office setups, it would be quite expensive to bring the spaces up to the current spacing and isolation requirements. IBM does self-insurance on health to a degree, so encouraging people to go back into unsafe offices could have negative bottom line consequences if that turns into spreading events. The cheapest option for IBM would be to just keep the current setups, but require vaccines. IBM had said it was going to go more in-person at the end of the summer (Septemberish), maybe not 5 days a week, but maybe 3, the rest remote. With the Delta virus breakthru case problems, they may be revisiting that, going remote for longer or cutting back on days to allow people to space more.

[Full disclosure, I have had COVID, before there was a vaccine, and let me say it was not fun. I was lucky, no trip to the hospital, but it was kind of a close thing for a couple of weeks. I would not wish this on anyone, particularly family and friends, co-workers. I would encourage everyone to get vaccinated, I did. If IBM ends up mandating vaccination to go back to work in person, I would be fine with that, in that having a safe work environment is kind of the least an employer can do.]

You won't have a leg to stand on if you take the jab should it not agree with you physically. It is experimental. Company cannot force an experiment on you. If they do, at least you have recourse. Isn't it interesting that you do not have to prove you were vaxed (anywhere you go) for highly contagious and deadly TB, let alone many other ailments and can walk into the office with them, but for this you need proof. Calling BS. Lookup graphene oxide. Hearing that you won't be able to get health care next year if you ARE jabbed.

Booming market for fake COVID-19 vaccine passports sparks alarm
Fake coronavirus vaccine passports are being sold online for “peanuts” in a fast-growing scam that has alarmed authorities as countries bet on the documents to revive travel and their economies, cyber security experts said.

Scammers always one step ahead as usual

@4qmm

Even if literacy is not my strong suit, reality is.

Self-certify means bupkis when it comes to risking other's health. No sir... you are being asked to show your vaccination card as a proof of vaccination. The only information this card has is: your name, date of birth and the date(s) you were vaccinated. Your employer already has your name and date of birth. Have you ever been concerned about those leaking in all the time you have been employed?

So, you're on! If your share your date of vaccination with your employer (the ONLY additional info your employer will gain when you show your vaccination card) and it is used for any other purpose that harms you financially, socially or politically, you can have my 401k. All $2 million of it!

Interested?

@4ujm+1bXWpA8r literacy isn't your strong suit, is it? I clearly said I am willing to self-certify. But what I am not willing to do is include any further information about my vaccination status in IBM's systems.

I tell you what: If it is so important for you that I must take the risk with my privacy, lets propose this: I divulge the information you ask for. If it is used for absolutely any other purpose, or leaked in any way, you agree to give me every penny in your 401(k).

Oh, you don't want to do that? You just want me to assume the risk for you, for free. Perhaps you are the selfish one.

@2trs and others citing medical privacy laws as an excuse to not disclose their vaccination status, what the hekk are you smoking?

You are free to not disclose any medical information AS LONG AS it will not affect others. If you are suffering from diabetes or heart disease or depression or what have you, you are fine to keep it to yourself, No one else is affected unless you are unable to do your job. But, if you were suffering from freakin' Ebola you can't say "Oh, I wont disclose it because of medical privacy".

Po-n stars have to show a certificate that shows they are not suffering from STDs or HIV because they could infect their co-stars. Same thing with COVID. If you are not vaccinated (or immunized from a prior infection), you are more likely to get infected by the Corona. And, if other people happen to be in your vicinity during the time you are infected, they can get infected as well (even vaccinated people are not 100% immune).

Therefore, companies have a right to ask your vaccination status and deny you a job if you are not vaccinated. It is to reduce the risk of COVID spreading among their employees.

Now, if you don't want to be vaccinated because you think it is experimental/dangerous or whatever, fine. Don't get vaccinated. You wont be able to show a proof of vaccination or you can say "my vaccination status is my private info". But, understand, that your employer is also free to fire you in response. If you take them to court, you will not have a leg to stand on. A bunch of hospital personnel were fired from a Houston hospital for not showing COVID vaccination proof. They took the employer to court and tried the same "vaccination is unproven", "my vaccination status is private" tricks. Their case was thrown out promptly.

"The people out there who think they know better than the advice of the entire world's accumulated medical and virology research expertise really need to get over themselves."

Perhaps some of us 'out there' aren't headline readers, and don't cave to the fear of Covid and the fear of non-compliance, but rather actually study the science, the death rates, the unapproved vaccine itself, and monitor the results trickling in as the adverse affects from this experimental vaccine start to emerge. All public knowledge, it just takes work.

Perhaps some of us understand this is an emergency vaccine, and that the adverse reactions of allergies, Thrombosis with Thrombocytopenia, and Guillain-Barré Syndrome were not discovered in lab animals during the normal course of vaccine development, but in human beings who signed off on it.

Perhaps we actually read the EUA of the chosen vaccine, and understand that no long-term affects can be known and decided to decline, perhaps revisiting the option in the years ahead when additional information is learned. Will there be a bumper crop of infants born with autism in 2025 because both parents received this vaccine in 2021? Who knows? Willing to take that risk? What other risks could there be? Who knows? Long-term studies are essential in vaccine development. Look up the polio vaccine.

Perhaps some of us actually read the J&J insert, and the statement that, "The Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine may not protect all vaccinated individuals." So ironically enough, it may be YOU, the 'fully vaccinated', who are infecting us in the office. When I ask someone who got the vaccine, do you have to get another one? "I don't know, they are still figuring it out."

Perhaps some of us questioned the jab-giver, "Hey, it says here that I should not get the vaccine if I'm allergic to any of the vaccine ingredients. Is there an allergy test for toPolyethylene Glycol (PEG) or Polysorbate?"

Perhaps some of us are aware of the difficult task of genomic sequencing this virus in the years ahead. Think there are just a few variants?

In any case, the choice is yours. And the choice is mine. Personal choice. I get to decide whether to have an experimental liquid shot into my arm, course through my lymph nodes and the rest of my system. I'll take the consequences of that decision. I'd rather take that risk at this point in time, then be calling up the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program.

So please refrain from calling people stupid and ignorant by making a blanket statement about the "the entire world's accumulated medical and virology research expertise", when that very expertise has weighed in and said that this vaccine may not work in you.

I'm willing to self-certify. But I am not willing to trust IBM's systems for ANY of my medical information beyond that. The damn email has been down for weeks and you want me to trust HR? Why not just post all of my personal health information on the dark web directly, that will save some steps for the inevitable leak.

You don't have the right to put people's privacy at risk. You tell yourself you do, but really what you are saying is "I'm gonna get what I want out of others, fu-k them." You sound like a selfish boomer, really.

As for court rulings, you'd be surprised how many have come down in favor of medical privacy. You are obviously cherrypicking. Grow some intellectual honesty. Even better, grow some empathy. Or... go crawl back into your cave where you believe you can meddle in everyone else's life.

Try enrolling your kids into public or even private school without providing vaccination proof. Schools can’t risk spreading measles and other childhood diseases, so they require it. YES you can exempt out via religion, but you have to prove that too. Good luck. IBM has the responsibility to provide a safe working envio. It’s the law, and they will require vaccination proof, especially if the Delta variant continues to expand. The courts have already taken and upheld vaccination documentation. (their ruling was it’s not a burden for you) NOTE you don’t have to provide documentation if you are already employed, but IBM has the right to terminate you IF you fail to comply with their back to the office, or in person rules. It’s the yin and the yang of at will employment.

@2jrk,
Just like the losers who are free to hit a bar, get tanked then get on the road.
You can always move if you hate freedom

So I’m assuming everyone here gets a flu shot every year?

@2trs+1bXWpA8r Really? I'm stupid and ignorant because I'm calling out mob rule here?

So you are fine with divulging your medical information to your employer. Good for you. But if you can't understand that not everyone is, then you are the stupid and ignorant one. And if you can understand it but just choose to persist, then you are an as----e.

For the record I actually am vaccinated, but I don't want to share all the details with my employer. Because, again, you don't have the right to demand to see my medical information. Got it bub?

If the anti-vax stupidity in this thread is representative of the intelligence of the broader mass of IBM employees, it's no wonder the company is circling the drain.

@2trs+1bXWpA8r

The stupidity and ignorance of your statement defies rational, let alone polite, debate.

@2zzv+1bXWpA8r do you really want us to go back to that golden era where people can just be locked up and be done with it?

No thanks. Society has made significant progress on respecting individual rights. Death penalty mostly gone, I can marry who I want, I can keep my medical information private, I have the right to remain silent, and so on.

So here's the deal: YOU get vaccinated if you want. That will protect you (yes, you could possibly catch COVID, but it would be no big deal). And as far as my medical history goes, you mind your own business. You will not drag us back to those dark ages, understand?

We have lived thru these airborne diseases before (measles, small pox, TB) Society dealt with them by prioritizing public health above personnel freedom. In the pre-Covid days we just quarantined you in your house and said problem solved. Why folks think they have the right to prioritize their personnel freedom over the public’s health is beyond me given that they have an escape clause (the vaccine) Yes there maybe some risk to it, but 3.5 billion vaccines later with minuscule side effects going on a years time frame seems to me to have put the worries to bed. Grow up and due your public duty, or self quarantine. It’s that easy.

"I don't understand why mandate is needed. People are free to get COVID, suffer, run up hospital bill and maybe die."

If that were the end of it, I would agree - let Darwin do his thing. But they are not just risking themselves. Some small percentage of vaccinated people will still get ill. And the unvaccinated are walking Petri dishes for new variants that the vaccines may not work well - or at all - against. Plus, some of us have relatives at home who for whatever reason cannot be vaccinated. We can pick up the virus from the plague rats and bring it home with us.

This goes double for the healthcare workers who are being exposed to those people when they get ill. Plus, those people are clogging up the healthcare system, especially ICUs, preventing people who did not obstinately make themselves sick from getting treatment they need.

"Any mandating of a purely experimental medical treatment by any organization or function or company or university is a blatant violation of international law and the Nuremberg Code"

Well, there it is. In a thread filled with stupid and dangerous nonsense by people who inexplicably think they are the Smartest Person In The Room, here is the d-mbest thing you will read all day. I hope for longer than that, but anti-vaxxers never cease to surprise me.

By the way, not only are you not the Smartest Person in this room; you still wouldn't be the Smartest Person In The Room if you were in a room by yourself.

I don't understand why mandate is needed. People are free to get COVID, suffer, run up hospital bill and maybe die.

Any mandating of a purely experimental medical treatment by any organization or function or company or university is a blatant violation of international law and the Nuremberg Code

IBM is currently running an internal survey about who are or not vaccinated... If you take the survey just say you are not vaccinated (no matter what).

Since you’re scared sh#tless of dying and will stand for hours in a line double masked, oh and drive with a mask, and terrified of office sharing with “selfish” plague rats, shows us us how much faith in the experimental vaccine you just got. Looks to me like you’re the lab rat.

Do your homework before casting judgment on those who have every right not to sign up for the experiment. Best you believe, it is an experiment.

At the very least, to gain an understanding of another perspective. Google “Dr. Hodkinson interview- COVID-19 vaccines, infertility, and Spike Protein Dangers.” He’s no dummy.

If you live in an At Will state, IBM can do whatever it wants and can fire you for any reason at any time [unless doing so constitutes discrimination against a Protected Class].

Personally, I think that a vaccine mandate [except in cases of genuine medical reasons] is a good thing. I don't want to come in to an office and share the air with a bunch of selfish plague rats who don't care who else they infect. And frankly, I don't want to be working with those people either.

The people out there who think they know better than the advice of the entire world's accumulated medical and virology research expertise really need to get over themselves.

I'm amazed that the admins here allow the propagation of dangerous lies like those posted by @nla+1bXWpA8r

And as someone who lost family in the Holocaust I am profoundly offended by the comparison to Na-i Germany.

And finally, I am deeply embarrassed to be associated with a company where that comment gets as many upvotes as downvotes. What the ever-living f*** is wrong with people?

Too many states have no vaccine passport laws on the books now.
IBM cannot play Dr Evil even if they wanted to.
Carry on

yes.I bet if you don't get vaccinated your insurance costs will be higher in the next sign up for benefits