Thread regarding SAP layoffs

T5 MANAGERS WHY HAVE THEY NOT BEEN REMOVED

McKinsey have been poking around on cost for years why has the T5 layer of managers not been removed. In my experience they largely work from home, demand lots of travel and are blockers to true change viewi g everything through their personal lens.

At many large enterprises like SAP, having a highly concentrated, top-heavy layer of senior executives (like the T5 band) can become a major drag on agility. While senior leadership is necessary for governance, an over-reliance on a massive executive tier often does more harm than good.
Here are some other reasons why a heavy executive management layer can be a bad idea, a waste of resources, and a massive blocker to organizational change:

  1. The "Telephone Game" of Communication
    When strategic goals have to travel down from the board through T5 executives, T4 directors, and T3 managers before reaching the people doing the actual work, the original message gets distorted. Key details are lost in translation, and the boots on the ground often end up executing something entirely different from what was intended.
  2. Decision Paralysis and Over-Analysis
    With too many high-level leaders wanting to leave their mark, decisions require endless rounds of reviews, steering committees, and alignments. Simple choices that should take days get dragged out for months because too many executives need to "sign off" or feel included.
  3. High Compensation, Low Direct Output
    Executive-level talent commands premium salaries, stock options, and bonuses. When a company carries a bloated executive tier, a massive portion of the budget is spent on individuals who manage and coordinate, rather than those who build, sell, or support the actual product. This is a highly inefficient allocation of capital.
  4. Preservation of the Status Quo
    Executives at this level have often spent decades navigating the corporate political landscape to achieve their status. Because their success is tied to the existing system, they are naturally incentivized to protect it. Truly disruptive change threatens their established domains, making them quiet saboteurs of radical innovation.
  5. Silo Creation and Empire Building
    To justify their premium titles and budgets, senior managers often focus on expanding their "empires"—hiring more people under them and fiercely guarding their departmental boundaries. This breeds internal competition and political infighting rather than cross-functional collaboration.
  6. Detachment from the Customer and Technology
    The higher up a leader goes, the further they get from the actual product and the day-to-day frustrations of the customer. Decisions are often made based on polished PowerPoint decks and sanitized reports rather than the raw, messy reality of the market.
  7. Death by PowerPoint (The "Tax" on Middle Management)
    To keep senior executives informed, middle managers and individual contributors must spend countless hours preparing status updates, dashboards, and presentations. This "reporting tax" drains valuable time and energy that should be spent on actual execution.
  8. Dilution of Accountability
    When a project involves multiple senior stakeholders, responsibility becomes diffused. If a major initiative fails, the layered structure makes it incredibly easy to point fingers, meaning no single executive is held accountable, and the organization fails to learn from its mistakes.
  9. Suffocation of Grassroots Innovation
    Great ideas in tech usually bubble up from the engineers, designers, and customer-facing staff. When there is a thick layer of top-down management, these ideas struggle to get noticed. If an idea doesn't align with an executive's personal roadmap, it is often ki-led before it can even be trialed.
  10. Heavy Friction for Agile Pivots
    In a fast-moving market, companies need to pivot quickly. A massive executive layer acts like a heavy anchor. Reorganizing, shifting budgets, or changing product direction requires untangling a complex web of executive egos, personal OKRs, and political alliances, making rapid adaptation nearly impossible.

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Post ID: @OP+1kxjbx7ah

29 replies (most recent on top)

@w8 Alexander Vonnemann and Diana Veit are pals clapping each other, they even give a presentation together of how “cool” they are. Vonnemann is a bully indeed and lacks people leadership skills. Makes sense he will aim to take the Head of Design role from Rebekka Kotinis soon. Veit will target to be the queen of Product Management and Vonnemann the king of Design. Signavio is a platform filled with people with bluffed roles without the experience. The opportunists and s h h i t people will take advantage when there is such a gap.

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Post ID: @wq+1kxjbx7ah

@vv Alexander Fonnemann joined Signavio from SAP 5 years ago and moved from T3 to T5 Senior Design Manager by playing political games, bulling others and stealing their work and taking credit. He has cultivated his boot lickers at lead levels now who follow him blindly. He plans to move to executive level by replacing Head of Design R.Kottinis who is also a veteran at SAP and ignored all the complaints against Sebastian, the design director of former design manager.
All of them are sh i t t i e r than the other.

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Post ID: @w8+1kxjbx7ah

@tk Timo Fassbender moved from T2 to T5PM in Signavio within 4 years. And now he works in Christian Klein's office. Nearly half of the colleagues who moved from SAP to Signavio have seen growth like this. But Signavio is not a reflection of how things work at SAP. These people just join any new acquisition and promote each other.

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Post ID: @vv+1kxjbx7ah

@t1 Diana Veit. She joined SAP in 2021 as T2. I had few interactions with her but I know someone working with her. She is fake and focuses on being likeable, visible, and smiles while sneaking her way up even when stepping into others. She got golden pass by his first manager, and rewarded by all the levels up until Andre Wenz. She “leads” AI and Data products without any technical understanding but steals from others.

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Post ID: @tk+1kxjbx7ah

@sw did you meant Diana Veit? If so then in 3 years she moved from a T3 to a T5 manager. I have worked with her, she was only good at making connections and slide decks. She was focused on making herself visible in all the important events but never delivered any work and needed constant reminders from people who collaborated with her. She is a prime example of SAP culture where you fake it and need connections to make it. Such a shame where merit is not rewarded but connections get you to places.

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Post ID: @t1+1kxjbx7ah

@sg a Frau Veit within Alessandro Petri recently promoted to manager have climbed the ladder in a non nice way, or as we call it "the SAP snake way”. If Andreas doesn’t draw the line she could try to steal Petri's role in a blink of an eye with a smile. She kisses Andre Wenz's a-s since day one.

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Post ID: @sw+1kxjbx7ah

@qq Andreas is getting the Head of Product job when Alessandro Manzi who is T5PM right now gets promoted to an executive position later this year.

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Post ID: @sg+1kxjbx7ah

@qq in BTP a man called Assmann, just doing decks, attend leadership meetings, present the same user journey picture, not doing something of much of value at all. Despite of, promoted every reorg, and now holds a T5 position, protected by his long life friend Nico Licht, who hired him into SAP.

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Post ID: @rj+1kxjbx7ah

@qq Andreas found a comfy home at Signavio because even the so called “VPs of Product Management” shared proudly taking Product Management 101 courses even when they were supposed to have 15+ years of experience haha. So it is easy to find a home were there is no competence.

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Post ID: @rh+1kxjbx7ah

@ed was that Andreas Lindenblatt? He moves to a different area every year and doesn't finish anything. Now he is in a single area since 3 years because he got 3 promotions in that timeframe.

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Post ID: @qq+1kxjbx7ah

Some T5 are warranted for their role overachiever and in T4 for 10 years. This is the exception. But at least if they do get layoff they will be measured on senior skills and not get stuck or reverted back to lower level role they clearly would be overqualified if layoff at T4 level.

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Post ID: @j6+1kxjbx7ah

@ae Above all, trust your board.

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Post ID: @h6+1kxjbx7ah

@f3 internal focused T5 are a cost the company cannot afford

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Post ID: @h4+1kxjbx7ah

@ez Agree that some T5s do add value - as do many customer facing positions, or positions that are focussed on product development. In my experience, the T5s in HR and Legal, for example, cannot be objectively assessed because they have no independently measurable output. As a result, it has become a club where only those who blindly support the current T5s are admitted - and many of the T5s have been in their role for many years. Their days are spent preserving their highly overpaid position and political manoeuvring so they can remain in their useless roles and ensure their legion of loyalists and flatterers are also well protected. SAP has a lot of problems but one of the main issues is that T5s with tenure cling to their roles and do not care if the company succeeds, innovates or progresses; it's all about preserving their power and paycheck.

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Post ID: @f3+1kxjbx7ah

@OP I'm a T5. Technical. Customer facing. Decades of actual delivery and delivery ownership.

And we need to be honest, if you had sufficiently good management probably half the company could be fired and productivity would increase.

The problem is that generally management is not able to sort the wheat from the chaff.

So taking the marxist class struggle approach would not fix the problem.

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Post ID: @ez+1kxjbx7ah

@cb you are talking about an HR....

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Post ID: @ep+1kxjbx7ah

@em As one T5 will bring 10x T4 and 10 xT4 will bring 200x T3-....

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Post ID: @en+1kxjbx7ah

They will replace a T5 with an Indian to destroy a German, so be careful.

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Post ID: @em+1kxjbx7ah

@cc I can confirm that. In an earlier project we had such a BS artist (T5).

Once he left, but not before, someone (a T5 dev manager, LOL) said: „M never finished anything he started, he always moved on before his theory-heavy stuff reached a customer“.

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Post ID: @ed+1kxjbx7ah

I'm not T5 and I don't want to change my focus.

My goal is to progress, increase my salary, work in better condition/environment.

Having more or less T5s won't bring me closer to my goals and it's more SAP's problem.

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Post ID: @cf+1kxjbx7ah

@cb They are big talkers and BS'ers. They can talk for 5 min, with very little meaning, lots of handwaving and showmanship. This is a T5. Unfortunately i dont the BS skills so stay at T4.

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Post ID: @cc+1kxjbx7ah

Totally agree with this post. We have a T5 in our org who has very little technical background to run the business. How did that happened! Apparently ar-e kissing does work at this place.

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Post ID: @cb+1kxjbx7ah

While this approach may be beneficial for startups, small organizations, or highly hands-on top management who can engage with their employees, it’s not suitable for our top management or board of organizations such as ours. They are not hands-on individuals and require information that can be translated from high-level abstractions to a level that employees at various levels can comprehend. Moreover, the feedback loop needs to be abstracted to enable top management to take action. There may be many T5 managers who don’t do a good job, but they are essentially the ones who are supposed to bridge this gap in 100k+ employees organization.

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Post ID: @ca+1kxjbx7ah

@bf oh yes plenty of MBA graduates particularly from Mannheim Business School. Typically just adding business words to slides, holding the mic in meetings, and overall just doing politics and bluffing about their titles/roles.

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Post ID: @bw+1kxjbx7ah

The online/remote and for-profit MBA programs have created an entire generation of only-delegation nodes in the flow of real, value-added output.

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Post ID: @bf+1kxjbx7ah

@a6 accurate, 99% of them are a--lickers.

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Post ID: @b7+1kxjbx7ah

Could not agree more - and this is the same in non-technical areas like HR and Legal. Mostly useless and sitting in roles for decades, part of a club and want no one else to enter, unless they are their friends who support and flatter them. If they all left tomorrow, would software suddenly stop being sold - no!

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Post ID: @am+1kxjbx7ah

Don‘t swear.

Don‘t complain.

Do your work and help SAP succeed.

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Post ID: @ae+1kxjbx7ah

@a6 100 per cent accurate

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Post ID: @a8+1kxjbx7ah

most T5 people i come across are sh-t and are not even technical and good at pretending and a--lickers.

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Post ID: @a6+1kxjbx7ah

Yes and cost nearly a billion a year!!!!!!

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Post ID: @a1+1kxjbx7ah

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