Thread regarding Oracle Corp. layoffs

On Sun

This is from HN:

Sad in a way, but no surprise. I recently summarized my opinions on hackernews[1] in response to why Netflix uses Linux instead of Solaris, which might be of interest here:

"I worked on Solaris for over a decade, and for a while it was usually a better choice than Linux, especially due to price/performance (which includes how many instances it takes to run a given workload). It was worth fighting for, and I fought hard. But Linux has now become technically better in just about every way. Out-of-box performance, tuned performance, observability tools, reliability (on patched LTS), scheduling, networking (including TCP feature support), driver support, application support, processor support, debuggers, syscall features, etc. Last I checked, ZFS worked better on Solaris than Linux, but it's an area where Linux has been catching up. I have little hope that Solaris will ever catch up to Linux, and I have even less hope for illumos: Linux now has around 1,000 monthly contributors, whereas illumos has about 15.

In addition to technology advantages, Linux has a community and workforce that's orders of magnitude larger, staff with invested skills (re-education is part of a TCO calculation), companies with invested infrastructure (rewriting automation scripts is also part of TCO), and also much better future employment prospects (a factor than can influence people wanting to work at your company on that OS). Even with my considerable and well-known Solaris expertise, the employment prospects with Solaris are bleak and getting worse every year. With my Linux skills, I can work at awesome companies like Netflix (which I highly recommend), Facebook, Google, SpaceX, etc.

Large technology-focused companies, like Netflix, Facebook, and Google, have the expertise and appetite to make a technology-based OS decision. We have dedicated teams for the OS and kernel with deep expertise. On Netflix's OS team, there are three staff who previously worked at Sun Microsystems and have more Solaris expertise than they do Linux expertise, and I believe you'll find similar people at Facebook and Google as well. And we are choosing Linux.

The choice of an OS includes many factors. If an OS came along that was better, we'd start with a thorough internal investigation, involving microbenchmarks (including an automated suite I wrote), macrobenchmarks (depending on the expected gains), and production testing using canaries. We'd be able to come up with a rough estimate of the cost savings based on price/performance. Most microservices we have run hot in user-level applications (think 99% user time), not the kernel, so it's difficult to find large gains from the OS or kernel. Gains are more likely to come from off-CPU activities, like task scheduling and TCP congestion, and indirect, like NUMA memory placement: all areas where Linux is leading. It would be very difficult to find a large gain by changing the kernel from Linux to something else. Just based on CPU cycles, the target that should have the most attention is Java, not the OS. But let's say that somehow we did find an OS with a significant enough gain: we'd then look at the cost to switch, including retraining staff, rewriting automation software, and how quickly we could find help to resolve issues as they came up. Linux is so widely used that there's a good chance someone else has found an issue, had it fixed in a certain version or documented a workaround.

What's left where Solaris/SmartOS/illumos is better? 1. There's more marketing of the features and people. Linux develops great technologies and has some highly skilled kernel engineers, but I haven't seen any serious effort to market these. Why does Linux need to? And 2. Enterprise support. Large enterprise companies where technology is not their focus (eg, a breakfast cereal company) and who want to outsource these decisions to companies like Oracle and IBM. Oracle still has Solaris enterprise support that I believe is very competitive compared to Linux offerings.

So you've chosen to deploy on Solaris or SmartOS? I don't know why you would, but this is also why I also wouldn't rush to criticize your choice: I don't know the process whereby you arrived at that decision, and for all I know it may be the best business decision for your set of requirements.

I'd suggest you give other tech companies the benefit of the doubt for times when you don't actually know why they have decided something. You never know, one day you might want to work at one."

I feel sorry for the Solaris engineers (and likely ex-colleagues) who are about to lose their jobs. My advise would be to take a good look at Linux or FreeBSD, both of which we use at Netflix. Linux has been getting much better in recent years, including reaching DTrace capabilities in the kernel.[2] It's not as bad as it used to be, although to really evaluate where it's at you need to be on a very new kernel (4.9 is currently in development), as features have been pouring in.

Also, since I was one of the top Solaris performance experts, I've been creating new Linux performance content on a website that should also be useful (I've already been thanked for this by a few Solaris engineers who have switched.) I've been meaning to create a FreeBSD page too (better, a similar page on the FreeBSD wiki so others can contribute).

FreeBSD feels to me to be the closest environment to Solaris, and would be a bit easier to switch to than Linux. And it already has ZFS and DTrace.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12837972 [2] http://www.brendangregg.com/blog/2016-10-27/dtrace-for-linux... [3] http://www.brendangregg.com/linuxperf.html

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Post ID: @OP+Lc1y07H

4 replies (most recent on top)

It used to be that Solaris drove our hardware sales. Our hardware wasn't the best when you compared it spec-to-spec against X86 boxes, but it was well-tuned to run Solaris and that's what drove our customers to SPARC.

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Post ID: @cjis+Lc1y07H

This is a good overview of what's going on and what the real issues are...

I concur with Brandan about this:

I feel sorry for the Solaris engineers (and likely ex-colleagues) who are about to lose their jobs. My advise would be to take a good look at Linux or FreeBSD,

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Post ID: @1ivy+Lc1y07H

Original URL: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13079370

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Post ID: @1ohc+Lc1y07H

Agree a hundred percent

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Post ID: @enp+Lc1y07H

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