Thread regarding Oracle Corp. layoffs

Oracle's cloud reputation is tainted, possibly beyond repair

Oracle customers complain of cloud coercion.

In my personal experience dealing with customers (former Oracle employee) they tell me in no uncertain terms that Oracle's cloud is seen as a joke. About 70 to 80 percent of my customers have a mandate to migrate off of Oracle products. I sell to enterprise customers. Here is some direct evidence reported in the news.
The important thing is that this is a serious problem. Oracle has bet its survival on the cloud. I see no win for Oracle and a can easily predict rapid decline in revenue across the board in the near future.

A poll by the Itam Review has identified anecdotal evidence that IT departments are being offered significant discounts to buy Oracle cloud. The poll comes just six weeks after a US court dismissed a case that alleged Oracle had misled investors over Oracle Cloud subscriptions.

Discussing the poll, Martin Thompson, founder of the Itam Review, said: “We’ve known for a long time that Oracle sales reps are incentivised heavily. They receive an absurd amount of commission to sell cloud, and so they go to great lengths to sell Oracle cloud, in spite of whether companies need it. Everyone knows this is going on.”

For example, said Thompson, Itam Review readers have reported that if they renew their on-premise contract, they might receive a 30% discount, but if they also opt to purchase Oracle cloud, the discount is 60%.

In a number of instances, the Itam Review found that Oracle customers were being coerced into buying cloud services. “We have been in an audit situation three years ago,” one user told the Itam Review. “Even though we had been licensed properly, due to mergers and acquisitions, Oracle figured out that the licenses were not properly ‘transferred’ to the new companies. Oracle then threatened us with a fine of over €150,000.”

The user then said that Oracle offered to waive the penalty if €50,000 of Oracle cloud licences were purchased instead. “We agreed to do so, fixed everything, got that certificate of compliance,” the user said. “We never used that Oracle cloud because we did not need it and because that cloud was not technically effective.”

For Thompson, the poll illustrates the challenges that Oracle faces as it tries to establish itself as a major cloud provider in a market dominated by AWS, Microsoft Azure, Alibaba and Google Cloud.

Oracle will often argue that its products work best on the Oracle Cloud because its engineers fine-tune and optimise the Oracle workloads, but Thompson said: “Oracle does not have a compelling enough offering. It is an economies-of-scale game.”

Even if Oracle’s claims about being able to run its software better on the Oracle Cloud are valid, said Thompson, a CIO who chooses an alternative cloud provider can always decide to buy professional services from Oracle to improve the performance.

He added: “In traditional software sales, you could do ‘smoke and mirrors’ with deals because there was no material cost in selling software. But the cloud is very different. It costs money to build out IT infrastructure.”

This means that heavy cloud discounting that does not lead to cloud subscription renewals is a financial drain, said Thompson, and the cloud provider may have to build out its IT infrastructure to support customers that do not renew their subscription.

In 2018, the City of Sunrise Firefighters’ Pension Fund began a class action against Oracle, alleging securities fraud, which claimed that the company had misled investors on the strength of its cloud business. Oracle argued that the case should be dismissed.

Court papers published on CaseText reveal that a confidential witness, who worked at Oracle as a regional sales director across the Middle East and Africa, claimed: “Executives were instructed to offer customers a 90% discount on on-premise licences if they purchased $300,000 worth of cloud subscriptions.”

On 17 December 2019, the US District Court, Northern District of California, San Jose Division, dismissed the case.

US District Judge Beth Labson Freeman ruled: “Because plaintiff (City of Sunrise Firefighters’ Pension Fund) fails to adequately plead that defendant (Oracle) made any false or misleading statements and that they did so with scienter [knowingly], the motion to dismiss is granted.”

However, the court gave the City of Sunrise Firefighters’ Pension Fund until 17 February 2020 to file an amended complaint, which sets out the securities fraud allegation in chart form.

www.computerweekly.com/news/252477506/Oracle-customers-complain-of-cloud-coercion%3famp=1

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Post ID: @OP+13h1ooQg

19 replies (most recent on top)

The product stinks and/or was created way too late compared to the competition. How do you combat that? Trade support dollars for cloud dollars. Financially engineering the deal. Welcome to Oracle Cloud PaaS/IaaS sales.

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Post ID: @3hwc+13h1ooQg

@2ecy+13h1ooQg you are right. Anyhow, I think Oracle does not need more support. Oracle is an extremely profitable company with zero future. A bit more support was not going to chance anything. I think this is exactly what top execs view some time ago and bet on an extreme card. All or nothing.

Still, it was going to be nothing anyhow.

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Post ID: @2cxz+13h1ooQg

On the Apps side, on prem and cloud are two separate teams. No one has the ability to sell both. Years ago, sales reps were baking in cloud apps that were paying 7x multipliers commissions even though they knew most likely the cloud apps would never be implemented or renewed,all at the expense of on prem apps support stream that Oracle desperately needs.

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Post ID: @2ecy+13h1ooQg

This is not correct, @1qpn+13h1ooQg.

There is one team than only sell Cloud, below 200K$ transactions.

The other sells Technology and Cloud over 200K$.

The first sell the "real" Cloud projects, as they have no other thing to leverage.

The second could in theory do the "bundling" thing, and they are still doing sometimes. The problem is that they already outsold customers of PULAs + unudes Cloud credits, so they are hated, have nothing to leverage... And the target is larger.

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Post ID: @2flu+13h1ooQg

OCI, being younger and more innovative, is quickly overtaking AWS

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Post ID: @2lzh+13h1ooQg

DOA/NPA SALES BOOKINGS....

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Post ID: @2amp+13h1ooQg

These financial deals by which a higher on-prem discount is achieved by getting a cloud service are no longer in place. At least in EMEA.

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Post ID: @2cfm+13h1ooQg

The OCI team in Seattle sure is paid well. They must be really important.

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Post ID: @2pzb+13h1ooQg

(This is the Wsy)

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Post ID: @2vpw+13h1ooQg

Oracle sales reps use to be able to sell on prem and cloud 4 years ago. Now, those teams are separated and you can only sell one or the other. So those big discounts are not being offered to buy both because teams are not incentivized on both on prem and cloud.

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Post ID: @1qpn+13h1ooQg

Oracle uses these layoffs to replace Americans with cheaper work visa workers that they bring over.

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Post ID: @1pvk+13h1ooQg

Oracle cloud offerings are so far behind competition, they’re a joke, and the idea that OCI will magically catch up is laughable. In another 12 - 24 months OCI will be even further behind. Waiting is stupid and dysfunctional but then again what do LE and S.C. know about cloud and the competition? Nada!

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Post ID: @1auz+13h1ooQg

30% I think that is optimistic. You are an Oracle Customer and have been for years. You want to upgrade and move some of your services to cloud. Are you going to go to a company that openly treats you like a piggy bank to be cracked open or somebody who promises to welcome your business and treat you with some respect?

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Post ID: @1krc+13h1ooQg

Every single word of Axeman’s post is completely and patently untrue. Do not believe his lies and propaganda.

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Post ID: @1xqy+13h1ooQg

The Ax-Man, coming at you from downtown San Francisco.....

The Ax-Man can tell you with certainty that the days of huge CORPORATE investment for OCI do have some limitations.

Although OCI is growing (albeit from a small base), it is not growing at nearly the projections that OCI leadership has “sold” to Oracle leadership over the past few years. Oracle leadership, though generally patient to date, is just now starting to lose patience with the situation. If the OCI growth does not accelerate significantly in the future, Oracle leadership WILL NOT HESITATE to replace the OCI leadership and change direction.

The general timeline in the minds of Oracle leadership is 18-24 months for OCI to show significant growth acceleration into a clear position past IBM and Google with enterprise customers, and 24-36 months to vault into a truly competitive position with AWS and Azure.

At this point, Oracle leadership privately gives the odds of OCI meeting these goals and succeeding to be around 30%.

If OCI does not make these general goals (both from an engineering/features and market presence standpoint), rapid changes will follow and the OCI leaders will rapidly be gone. They will be Axed. Most likely by me or one of my immediate colleagues.

This is the Way.
(This is the Way)

The Ax-Man

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Post ID: @1qtn+13h1ooQg

"That means that Oracle is sabotaging its own on-premise sales".

Yes, I can absolutely confirm that. I was a sales consultant for 17 years, before I left in 2018. The product I was working with wasn't perfect, but it had 10+ years of development, which means it was fairly feature-rich, although it didn't really evolve as fast as the market (which happens with every Oracle product). The Cloud "alternative" to that product was released after a bit more than a year of development, without even the basic functionality it would need to be sold for real customers. Things like role-based security, import/export, reporting or monitoring, and other extremely basic functionality. Things I hadn't had to worry about in years, were simply missing (or, "on the roadmap").

As soon as it went GA, we were asked to "stuff it" into our deals, as a kind of cloud 'extension' to the on-prem solution. Clearly, that wasn't enough, because less than a year later, the sales reps were told to go with Cloud first, even if the product lacked functionality to make it barely usable for customers. The next year, they said sales reps wouldn't get quota recognition for on-premise sales. Basically they would get a commission check, but it wouldn't change their quotas (which, as any Oracle sales person knows, the real money appears once you breach 120% or so of your quota). I left after that, but I guess the next step would be not to pay commission for on-prem at all.

To make matters worse, the Development team was the same, so they dropped all on-prem investment (other than mandatory patches and OS/browser support) and dedicated everyone to build the Cloud product, which wasn't nowhere near ready to cannibalize on-prem sales. I've lost so many deals because I had to go with the Cloud 'alternative', and the customer wouldn't buy it, because we didn't integrate with their LDAP service (had to wait for the IDM cloud to be released).

So my choices were: sell them a product that does what they need (more or less), but that is dead; a product that will not get any updates, any new features and it will not evolve. Or, sell them a Cloud 'solution' that lacks even the most basic of capabilities, and let them figure out how to deal with it.

I chose door number 3 and got a job at a company that actually cares about customers.

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Post ID: @1ssm+13h1ooQg

They want to show revenue growth in cloud because that’s what Wall Street values, and that is why they are willing to give away on-prem stuff for nothing if customers buy some cloud. Does it reduce overall revenues? Of course it does! Does it reduce share price short term? Probably not. Long term? You bet it does!
LE is old, doesn’t expect to around for much longer so he doesn’t care

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Post ID: @1zat+13h1ooQg

Upper management doesn't care. They continue getting their millions.

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Post ID: @1rri+13h1ooQg

I love this part:

Court papers published on CaseText reveal that a confidential witness, who worked at Oracle as a regional sales director across the Middle East and Africa, claimed: “Executives were instructed to offer customers a 90% discount on on-premise licences if they purchased $300,000 worth of cloud subscriptions.”

That means that Oracle is sabotaging its own on-premise sales to get the customer to buy something that is totally unusable and will never be renewed. It's such a clusterf–k. The upper management really, really does not know that the oracle "cloud" is all c-ap. They just don't get it.

Some of the upper management should bother to get on the phone with some customers so they can get a clear picture of their own products. Wow, what a mess.

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Post ID: @sqb+13h1ooQg

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