Thread regarding Chevron Corp. layoffs

That stolen money comes out of Chevron's pension program. That belongs to all of you. it's paid into and distributed fairly. Except in some cases. If all of you agree to let one guy have some of your earnings out of your pockets at the expense of the solvency of Chevrons pension program, then so be it. Why don't you guys all just pass the hat around and pitch in for this poor ol' sap , in that case? It's no different.

@3tlw - I never criticized the OP, I said the moral issue almost certainly wouldn't matter cause Chevron would almost certainly discover it eventually. I just can't imagine that Chevron doesn't audit these things pretty carefully, given ERISA requirement and all, but I may be wrong. I don't have any problem with OP waiting to see what happens, I might do the same thing myself, and as you pointed out if he dies before they catch it his heirs may be able to keep it. Don't assume that everyone who responds to you is the same person, otherwise you're inviting trolls to just wind you up to see what happens.

I think that the butthutt deadwood losers have found this thread. They are all preparing for the axe. And luck is winning the lottery, or having the best poker hand. Accepting money from a clerical error that results in you getting double your pension is called theft. I would lean toward reporting it before they discover it and you end up embarrassing yourself.

Oh children, grow up. And for the lucky annuitant who hit the Chevron jackpot (for now and hopefully forever), luck should have it that we cross paths one day and you buy me lunch. Maybe some of your luck will rub off on me.

@GwZJAzr-3xdv, I would but unfortunately you are a functional illiterate and have no brain, therefore, I would be wasting my time. Get back to your mommies PC, little Knap-sack wearing brain-dead Chevroid with no conscience.

You have been disrespectfully schooled in this thread on both the law and morality, an even greater lesson. Unfortunately, it may not sink into your little Chevroid skull. Next time, don't make me buy the books when I send you to school!

Stealing money from Chevron. Plus stealing money frim the pension fund your colleagues depend on. Jerk and a thief.

Hey @3nyo, you can't school me. I can spin circles around you any day any place. Write something intelligent.

3nyo, stop preaching the Bible, man. What Chevron is doing right now with many employees is a sin. Go preach to the Board of Directors, Human Resources and the BU managers. Chevron is stealing the dignity and livelihood of many of its workers during this layoff period. What's a rare case of giving away an extra $4,300/month worth to this company that wastes that amount on an hourly basis in every OPCO everyday? Christ, take things into perspective. The issue is small potatoes. More power to that lucky annuitant. I'd do the same thing he is doing if after many years I got sh-- canned.

@GwZJAzr-2imv, Taking money that does not belong to you is called "STEALING"

Now respectfully, you have been schooled.

You say it is a virtual certainty that Chevron will discover the error and ask for the money back. But, you don't really know that for certain, do you? Why not wait and see? The duplicate payments are being set aside in a separate account. The annuitant has no intention in spending it. But the legal aspects of it makes it very interesting. If this goes on for years and is not detected through any audits, the heirs of the annuitant can actually gain possession legally. Another prospect is if the annuitant and his wife decide one day to retire overseas and not come back to the US, they can withdraw all their money and close accounts or have it transferred to foreign accounts. That money will be gone forever. Instead of criticizing the annuitant, why not criticize Chevron for making the mistake?

@3gtm - I just don't think that the moral issue is that big a deal because I think that it's a virtual certainty that Chevron will discover the error and ask for the money back. So the OP can give it back now or later, it's up to him/her.

You are correct @2gkz about Chevron having the right to sue the annuitant to recover the clerical error if not returned voluntarily. The legal grounds is called "Injust Enrichment". I believe the annuitant made it abundantly clear he would return every cent if Chevron requests it. He said he actually opened a separate account to segregate the duplicate payments for that purpose. The whole thread on this topic has been centered around what is morally right and wrong. The legal aspect has been already discussed and confirmed. If Chevron does nothing and the duplicate payments balloon into the hundreds of thousands of Dollars, and the annuitants die, the windfall payments will be distributed to the heirs, thus making the return of money very complicated if not impossible. There is a moral and legal element to this case. The annuitant is in control of this situation.

@2imv - You may be correct on the recoupment. But I suspect that Chevron has the right to sue the employee for the overage if it is not given back voluntarily since it appears to be due to a clerical error.

@2nrn, thanks for posting but you are misunderstanding the information in that link. Recoupment on overpayment of pensions refers to (and is limited to) the correction of the original calculation of the pension amount. If the annuity, in this case, was not calculated properly initially, Chevron is able to recalculate the amount and recoup any overpayment. That is quite different from what has purportedly happened in the case of the retiree. Chevron did not miscalculate the annuity amount. They are erroneously sending him his annuity twice. So, Chevron cannot do what you think it can. But like my tax attorney said, Chevron can only request the return of its overpayment. They cannot "screw" with the annuitant. Now respectfully, you've been schooled.

Great summary, @2omw. I agree totally. The downside of the annuity will always be the rate of inflation. I chose the annuity with that in mind, but rationalized that Social Security will offset the inflation hit for me. I have over $1.25MM in my 401k and have zero debt. House and 3 cars all paid off. So the annuity was a no-brainier for me.

@2slj - Have your tax attorney wife look at this article concerning recoupment. http://www.pensionrights.org/publications/fact-sheet/what-recoupment.

Overpayments on pensions are not that uncommon, and reducing future payouts is the normal way of handling the error. Companies are not required to recoup the overage, but they are definitely within their rights to do so.

@2ysr - 17 years is how long it would take to drain the lump sum if you got 0% on your investments. If you invest in 10 year treasuries at 1.88% it will last more than 21 years. That being said, if you don't feel comfortable investing in anything more risky than U.S. treasuries, then the Chevron annuity is probably the way to go. If one is OK with a mix of stocks, bonds, etc. then you are likely to do better than that, but of course there are no guarantees. The main risk with taking the annuity is inflation. Currently it's quite low, but even moderate inflation over 20 years will lower the value of the annuity considerably, and high inflation can be devastating. Just depends on what sort of risk you feel more comfortable with. There was a long discussion of annuity vs lump sum earlier at https://www.thelayoff.com/t/EBvQOkT that you might want to look at.

@2hqz, you said; "We are all in the same boat". I can assure you that NOT everyone is in the same boat. As for the rest of your post, I can understand your point. Although I hope you know it's not shared by everyone. I hope the lucky retiree can keep the reward he seems to currently have been bestowed.

I'm pretty sure that accepting money that is not rightfully yours is dishonest, I don't care what you call it and I don't care how poorly that person thinks he or she was treated. That makes no difference. We are all in the same boat. Chevron's Pension and Severance are extremely generous compared to the rest of industry. If it was me. I would just bite my lip(miserably) and have to call them and report it. If they insisted on not correcting the problem after that (actually not extremely unlikely) then that's that. But I would at least try to do the right thing. I wouldn't want trouble with either my future payments, my spouses if I have the 100% joint and survivor, or God forbid, the IRS. And then I would sleep well, nighty night. The pensions are fat and juicy, the person himself said he doesn't need it, no harm done.

@2eqc If i found that wallet I would check for anything that identified him as a Democrat and if I found it I would take my share of his money ,(because he had some and i needed it) Then run up his credit cards then mail back his wallet with a free "Feel the Bern" bumper sticker for his Prius.

If not I would give him the benefit of the doubt and return everything as found.

@2xgs, are you an attorney or pretending to be one? Go pass the bar exam before commenting on legal matters.

@2eqc, I share your view as well as many others would. It seems to me, by what the person who is receiving the duplicate annuity payments said, he is willing to do the right thing and return it to Chevron if they discover the error and request it. The difference (using your example) is that finding a wallet is not the same as duplicate payments from Chevron. A wallet that belongs to an individual feels the loss more, whereas the money from Chevron is not felt as the same kind of loss. The retiree also stated he was "screwed in a layoff", which is likely the basis he justifies to keep the money until if Chevron comes asking for it. I can sympathize with the retiree, although not ethical in keeping it, he is not stealing it either. You don't know what the circumstances where that he went through when he was laid off. You've got to admit Chevron's management and HR have been less than open with the employees during these hard times.

@2slj, seems like incomplete advice. At a minimum if say 6 months were duplicated cvx could stop paying for 6 months because they already paid in advance those payments. At worse, intentional fraud and stealing sounds pretty bad to me.

When you find a wallet on the street with the owners name in it, are you the kind of person who calls them to return it untouched, because it's just the right thing to do, regardless of who is richer, poorer, etc. or do you keep it and stick around to see if someone shows up, then if and when they do, you try to analyze who deserves the money more that doesn't belong to you, them or you?

2dsf, my wife is a tax attorney. I mentioned the story told by 1ynw in this thread. She tends to think that Chevron could discover the discrepancy and request the return of the excess payments. But, Chevron cannot legally retain any part of the annuity payments due the retiree. If Chevron generates a new 1099-R that includes the duplicate payments, they are effectively legalizing the payment as belonging to the retiree. The bottom line here is Chrvron can only request the return of the money, nothing else.

The annuity is a better deal for you if you want security and you do not either feel like, or have a knack for investing. You cannot get an annuity comparable to the Chevron pension for the same price (the price being the value of the lump sum) on the open market today. It has been researched. Although it is possible, and people will talk themselves up big on this site, it is tricky and involves a steady mind and a lot of patience to equal or beat the return (5 to 6%) of the annuity in investments. Those are things that you are more likely not to have in your elder years. On the other hand, if you actually are a savvy investor, and not just a big talker who read a few articles, like most, you can get better returns with the lump sum, but at a much greater risk. Even Index funds crash when the market crashes. If you have a decent 401k built up though, you are still able to invest like a banshee with that, in any case. I would suspect that it depends on the size of the LS. If it is very small then it's no big deal.. However I know an older lady who held on to a tiny pension from a major tank manufacturer years ago, it grew and she is SO grateful to have that few hundred a month to stream in forever on top of her SS and other distributions today. The lure to take the money and run is great but not always the wisest decision. I suspect younger folks will always want it now for those new toys. That's a hard urge to resist - I admit.

Understood, @2spc. I hope you and your wife live a long and healthy life. Invest your lump sum wisely. A conservatively diversified portfolio will reduce your worries and will help it last. Keep your monthly expenses in check and follow a budget the best way you can. Hopefully your investments don't befall a setback and you need to cut back a lot on your budget. In either case, best of luck to you. Keep in mind as a rule of thumb, your lump sum payout (not invested) will last you approx 17 years if you withdraw from it a monthly amount equal to your 100% Joint & Survivor annuity. I.e., divide your lump sum calculation by your annual annuity amount (annuity x 12). As you can see, it would be your responsibility to invest it securely and with a sufficient return to last beyond 17 years. You will need to make up any setback or over withdrawals over your lifetime. If you don't understand or want to manage your investments, then factor in another 1% for wealth management expenses. That may sound like a small percentage, but it's not. That 1% is taken out on top of commissions and fund expense ratios, whether your investments do well or not. That's why I chose to collect a lifetime joint annuity from Chevron instead.

-2hyb, I couldn't have said it better myself in ; "Your philosophy and his are different" . That is so true! Some people are honest and do the right thing in all cases and try not to inconvenience nor hurt others in any way, and other people are lying (by omission), cheating, dishonest thieves!

@2hud I was just weight my options of taking the lump sum vs annuity. With the lump sum I will leave it in my will, you cannot do that with a monthly annuity. My children will not see the money until my wife and I croak, that I can assure you.

@GwZJAzr-2hyb, I couldn't have said it better myself in ; "Your philosophy and his are different" . That is so true! So people are honest and do the right thing in all cases and try not to inconvenience nor hurt others in any way, and other people are lying (by ommision), cheating, dishonest thieves!

For Christ sake, 2vmu. You are saying you'll be splitting your retirement lump sum with too many people! Usually the lump sum, well invested, would last for one person's or a married couple's lifetime. But go sustaining one or two children as well, and you'd be lucky if you have a buck left after 10 years. Your heart may be in the right place but your brains are not. You are better off keeping your kids close, but leaving them to find their own way. Don't drown trying to save them. It won't work.

@1wxr I have not taken your advise the wrong way and what you say is very true. The only concern that I have is when I grew up I could find a job anywhere. My Dad made me work on a cotton farm growing up and when I was in high school I worked on a sugar cane farm. I have been in the oilfield since 1972 and it has been good to me. My children do not have those opportunities in today's world. The jobs are not available. My daughter made many mistakes in life but has turned out to be a hard worker in the restaurant business but she will never have the finer things in life. My son's legacy has yet to be written as he is young and foolish right now. I will take the lump sum and help them as much as I can as they are my blood and will carry my name forward.

Chances are at some point Chevron auditors will notice the mistake. At that point they will probably either ask you to pay it back or reduce future payments until they've gotten it all back. When ETC was moved from La Habra to San Ramon many people received taxed-up payments for expenses that weren't supposed to be taxed up. Some people suspected it was a mistake. Eventually Chevron noticed it and asked for it back by deductions from future paychecks spread out over several months. These kind of mistakes happen occasionally and in general they are eventually discovered and fixed. The IRS issue could be interesting in that if/when Chevron discovers the mistake it may have to issue you a corrected 1099-R for 2015, at that point you then may have to file an amended return for 2015. Or it's possible they can just report it to the IRS as though you received the money at the time you should have.

@2ysc, leave @1ynw be. Your philosophy and his are different. What may not allow you to sleep sound every night may not affect him. People do everything in this world for a reason. He has his reasons and convictions and you have yours. No one has to agree, just accept it that way and go on with with your life.

If it were me, I would report the discrepancy to Chevron immediately. In the end, there is no such thing as free money.

@1lix, you find my story a tall tale? Sounds incredible, right? Imagine my surprise when I received my first check, then the direct deposits that followed. I was pissed off at first and after the second month I began to think someone above is rewarding me for the good life I have led and all the hard work I gave Chevron for 26 years, just to be shafted in a layoff. I plan to keep the money set aside. Time will tell if it was destined to be mine.

1ynw, I find it very hard to believe that Chevron would make a mistake like that. Sounds like a tall tale.

@1exp let me impart some advise to you. Please don't take what I tell you the wrong way. Take the lump sum if that's what you want. But take it for yourself, not your children. The legacy your children receive from you should be the way you raised them, not what you leave them after you die. You go ahead and live your life and let them live theirs. That's my philosophy, that's all. If you received an inheritance from your parents and now want to pass on something to your children, then fine. But nobody is owed anything in this life. You earned your way and you reap what you sow. Pass that lesson on to your children and have them live their life where they reap what they sow. That is more valuable than any monetary inheritance you could leave behind.

Thanks for the feedback. I will most probably take the lump sum due to my children. I am not sure I understand the income tax thing yet but I will let my financial adviser handle that. If I was getting two annuity checks per month I would have called HR and reported it the first month. That is just me as my faith would require me to do so.

Pensions are not earned income so no FICA tax is taken outl. Income tax and medical deductions can be arranged to be withheld.