Thread regarding Cisco Systems Inc. layoffs

IT has looked at stopping supplying laptops several times whilst I've been there. They are leased. The risks from malware, ransomware are high without strict endpoint management. Any incident would be commercially embaressing. Majority of staff would push back at buying and maintaining their own device to be able to do their job. I think in the future a lot of companies will push employees to buy their own tools and software.
Cisco has always been generous with the hardware and as a Lenovo user, its always been fairly reliable.

I don't follow your argument. First you say that it would be commercially embarrassing to have a data breach/exposure or loss (ransomware) and then you state that companies will push employees to buy their own tools and software. Which is it?

IT can't easily, or cheaply, manage dozens of models of laptops, various levels/types of OS (Windows build, macOS version or even the various Linux distributions) if they force employees to buy/bring their own. And they certainly aren't staffed to "re-image" every laptop that a new-hire brings in to put some minimum level of patched/secure OS on it because every laptop manufacturer likes to bundle their own device drivers for their specific hardware/configuration. Dell is especially bad about that.

I can see, however, Cisco giving users a hardware allowance to buy certain brands/models, but allowing users to pay extra to upgrade CPU, RAM or SSD configs to match their needs/preferences, but that would make their "hot swap" process impossible to use anymore to get people back up and running quickly due to broken laptops by swapping out identical models from surplus instead of a user having to take it in for repair and waiting 3-10 days for Lenovo/Apple to fix it.

Cisco Security Agent (CSA) and the other c-ap IT bundled onto Win 95/98 made the Lenovo's of the early/mid 2000's almost unusable. Things got better with Windows 7, but there was one line of Lenovo laptops that had a hardware design issue that made them very unreliable and if you were unfortunate enough to have that model, like I did, you had problems the entire 3 yr lease. I went through 5 laptops until I could refresh to a newer model. Since Windows 10, most of the ThinkPad line has been OK, but until recently the "workstation" model was huge and heavy.

But, I will be the first to admit that Apple OS and hardware quality have dropped way down are are making it a burden to have a Mac. Almost everyone I know, including myself have had issues with swollen batteries, defective keyboards, or USB-C/Thunderbolt ports that become loose and cause intermittent connection issues with devices or power cords. And the software issues that come with each new OS version is getting to be a pain.

I really like the Lenovo laptops. They are sleeker than the MacBooks and come with a carbon fiber shell. I can do everything that I used to do on a Mac. The Microsoft operating system is a lot better than it used to be.

I don't know what Levovo models you're talking about. The ones that Cisco provides as options are not carbon fiber shells. And only the X1 Carbon model is sleeker than the Macs, but it's not as powerful for compiling code.

I’ve used a Lenovo, wouldn’t touch a MAC for work. It had a reputation for not being compatible with so many Cisco tools. I do believe things have improved but still don’t fancy a MAC...

It's Mac, not MAC. MAC is _M_edia _A_ccess _C_ontrol as in MAC address. But, yes, it had, and still has, a reputation for not being compatible with many Cisco processes (not tools). MS Project and Visio are the biggest two, along with the c-appy Outlook client for Mac. If you're a developer and not a Financial or Project Manager type, or possibly an Architect, they do just fine.

IT has looked at stopping supplying laptops several times whilst I've been there. They are leased. The risks from malware, ransomware are high without strict endpoint management. Any incident would be commercially embaressing. Majority of staff would push back at buying and maintaining their own device to be able to do their job. I think in the future a lot of companies will push employees to buy their own tools and software.
Cisco has always been generous with the hardware and as a Lenovo user, its always been fairly reliable.

I’ve used a Lenovo, wouldn’t touch a MAC for work. It had a reputation for not being compatible with so many Cisco tools. I do believe things have improved but still don’t fancy a MAC...

I really like the Lenovo laptops. They are sleeker than the MacBooks and come with a carbon fiber shell. I can do everything that I used to do on a Mac. The Microsoft operating system is a lot better than it used to be.

If you don't like the mac can you exchange it?

No. You're stuck until the end of your lease.

I don't like it. I can do everything on Windows and I can run apps on Intel.

If you don't like it, don't get one.

MacMini has moved to an Apple CPU now. Everything is proprietary.

Right now, the Mac's available at Cisco ARE Intel based, so there's no issues yet. However, it will be interesting to see how the new Apple M-1 CPUs work out and how good Apple's x86_64 emulation is. If the ARM processor does well enough, and the emulation is decent, Windows may be forced to switch to ARM processors as well and eventually emulation won't be needed. I'd rather have a Cisco ARM-based Mac to get used to it than to buy one myself only to find out Apple fails to make the transition to ARM work.

I like to run VM's in Windows with an Intel CPU.

I like to run VM's too. I just don't care for the Windows experience of having to frequently save my work and shut down all my VMs to apply Windows security patches and reboot every Patch Tuesday.

Does Cisco offer this laptop to their employees? If so, I would choose System76 at my next PC refresh.

Nope, just Lenovo T4xx series, X1 Carbon series and P50 series or Apple 13" & 16" MacBook Pro's. We don't get a lot of choices. The light-weight under performing traveler model for manager's & sale's people who do nothing but PowerPoint, a medium model for Windows users who need more processing power than the X1 or the bigger, heavier "workers" model.

"Standard open source cloud tools run better on a MAC. Many don't run on Windows at all. Linux machines are required for cloud development. When running in the cloud, it is common to use local management tools to control and manage remote orchestration systems."

My response here. I would think that the System76 laptop with Ubuntu would solve all your problems then. Since System76 is a Linux machine that meets your "requirement" for "development".

Hope that helps!

Check out https://system76.com/laptops/
System76 comes with True Linux and an Intel CPU.

Does Cisco offer this laptop to their employees? If so, I would choose System76 at my next PC refresh.

If you need true Linux, then System76 laptops come pre-loaded with Ubuntu Linux.

Apple is announcing that Apple MacBooks are now moving to ARM processor. The M1 chipset.

Apple used to have Motorola chipset instead of Intel.

Steve Jobs was smarter and he used Intel chipset inside Apple computers.

Now, Apple is going away from Intel, to a proprietary CPU and chipset.

If you don't like the mac can you exchange it?

I don't like it. I can do everything on Windows and I can run apps on Intel.

MacMini has moved to an Apple CPU now. Everything is proprietary.

I like to run VM's in Windows with an Intel CPU.

Like the OP, I spend too much time with IT support with a Lenovo than I do when I had a Mac. The caliber of the team that is setting up the Mac's policy enforce

I was the one who made the comment about that saying more about the IT Dept than the Mac.
I rarely call desktop support, perhaps once every 2-3 years, and only then because they are the gatekeeper. I don’t have a problem with Windows, I have a real problem with what the id–ts in IT do to it. That’s what generates my calls.
There are substantial problems (hacks gone wrong) with the current IT image deployed on the Lenovo laptops. They never start with a new distribution so they are still there on my third refresh. They cannot fix these problems, and they refuse to start with a clean sheet because they are lazy.
In my last refresh the Cisco image would not run most of the Windows apps. After some part-time sleuthing, I managed to tell them what was wrong and now it should work on every device (hmm, better recheck that on my new one).
My laptop is bordering on unusable because of all the c-ap now loaded on it. I had a snapshot the other day where the top six I/o processes were Cisco security tools reading and writing almost 80 MB/s.
That’s why I almost returned to Mac, just to get away from those cretins.

Regarding Putty and Cygwin. Yes, it’s two extra apps, and the key setup takes another 3-4 minutes. Of all the problems with a refresh, they are the first I do, and the most trivial. Rather go through that step once than live with Mac shortcomings forever.

Years ago we used to have a wiki page for Apple MacBooks and iPhones (you could check email from your iPhone).

IT would not support these products, so they had a list of issues that others faced with Apple products and how to resolve those issues, YOUrSELF.

A lot has changed. Back then most people had IBM Lenovo laptops.

Now, most people have an Apple Macbook Pro.

And of course the thing still would not charge ...LOL

I was contractor for 2 years and forced to used a POS second hand MAC that was 3 years old had a broken keyboard and charger.

Local IT didn't want to give out new chargers so their solution was to replace the motherboard and of course force me to recover my data and setup my machine all over again because Code 42 worked so well!!

And of course if you wanted to dock it you were locked in to all those lovely expensive peripherals your boss refused to sign off on.

F– those MACs

With Putty and Cygwin, I’ve been doing that for at least 15 years.

You made my point for me. You had to install other software. I've been using PuTTY for years too. But with the Git Windows client, I get OpenSSH, bash, and many Unix commands/utilities without needing PuTTY or Cygwin and it's only one app I have to install instead of 2 or 3.

I forget the reasons why, but I have a co-worker who is adamant about not using PuTTY. Mostly about security/bugs, but it looks like the recent update may address some of those issues. For me, the biggest thing was it's lack of support for OpenSSH ssh keys and its use of its own proprietary .ppk files.

When I first joined Cisco I had a Lenovo and I seemed to be on support calls with IT on a regular basis. I don’t think I’ve ever had to call IT about a Mac.

In my opinion, that says more about the quality of IT than the Mac.

When Mac's were first allowed as a leased asset instead of department purchases, user's had to support themselves and created a wiki site where they shared tips on how to make them work better within the Cisco infrastructure, Mail/Exchange configurations, setting up DavMail for Calendar support, setting up LDAP/Directory services so we could look up conference rooms, etc.

Those users were capable, and willing, to troubleshoot and figure things out instead of calling the help(less) desk. The users who prefer a Mac for what it gives them over a Lenovo are the same users who won't open support cases. Those who just want the "shiny" cool thing are the ones that open cases.

Like the OP, I spend too much time with IT support with a Lenovo than I do when I had a Mac. The caliber of the team that is setting up the Mac's policy enforcement is way better than the team that setup PC's and turned them into paperweights. You still don't want to call and open a support case because the Tier 1 support staff who triage the cases don't have a clue. If you can get routed past them to the correct team, you might get decent support.

Most of the Mac policy enforcement is pretty good and the IT team is better about telling us about upcoming changes that the Windows side is.

The problem now, is that Microsoft Office 365 development treats it's users like beta testers. We still can't get a fully featured Outlook client. And IT/InfoSec has blocked the use of third-party software like Fantistical that made the Outlook/Mail/Calendar experience bearable.

If you schedule meetings frequently, Mac life sux. If you work in Linux all day, Mac life is pretty damn good.

Is true that folks who use lenovo laptops tend to LR'ed more than folks using macbooks? Is this age discrimination in disguise?

No. There's plenty of older workers who use Mac's over Lenovo.

When I first joined Cisco I had a Lenovo and I seemed to be on support calls with IT on a regular basis. I don’t think I’ve ever had to call IT about a Mac.

In my opinion, that says more about the quality of IT than the Mac.

Is true that folks who use lenovo laptops tend to LR'ed more than folks using macbooks? Is this age discrimination in disguise?

The rise of the Mac was driven by the fact that whole life costs were less than for Windows machines. I can’t remember the exact details but initially Macs were subsidised and only supported through the user community. However, after a year or two, IT saw that the support requirements for Macs were considerably less than the equivalent Windows device so Macs were made generally available and fully funded. So, even accounting for the higher purchase price (and don’t forget that we lease them anyway, and Macs retain their value better) the whole life costs were less.

When I first joined Cisco I had a Lenovo and I seemed to be on support calls with IT on a regular basis. I don’t think I’ve ever had to call IT about a Mac.

Having said that, the quality of Macs has deteriorated significantly and I’m not sure the maths would stack up today.

There are issues using the Windows Subshell for Linux (WSL). First, at least with WSL v1, the subshells were not portable between laptops or users. Each WSL instance is completely compartmentalized, so you have to setup your Linux configuration, i.e. "dot" files for each subshell as well as copying your SSH keys into it. You can't have a common ssh_agent running to keep your SSH passphrase cached.

With Putty and Cygwin, I’ve been doing that for at least 15 years.

My son wanted a MacBook and it costs $3000 dollars. Plus Microsoft Office, Microsoft this and that (he wanted something called VMWare Fusion to run Microsoft) and all the Microsoft suite of software. Basically he wanted me to spend another $1000 dollars.

When I wanted a Mac, it was just under $2K. We got MS Office for $20 via the Home Use Program (HUP) and VMware Fusion was only $80. Yes, a Mac was twice the cost of a PC, but I could run three OS's on it. A PC can only run two unless you violate Apple's license agreement and you create a "hackintosh".

Microsoft now comes with a Linux based Sub-shell. But Microsoft now has a Linux shell available. The Linux sub-shell can be run from a Microsoft command line in Windows 10 and later.

There are issues using the Windows Subshell for Linux (WSL). First, at least with WSL v1, the subshells were not portable between laptops or users. Each WSL instance is completely compartmentalized, so you have to setup your Linux configuration, i.e. "dot" files for each subshell as well as copying your SSH keys into it. You can't have a common ssh_agent running to keep your SSH passphrase cached. With a Mac, you can run the default Terminal and iTerm2 and they can all share your common set of "dot" files and SSH keys/agent. Also, why install subshells when you have a bash shell, now ZSH shell, as a native client?

As a Manager, have to spend more on mac laptops, for the upfront cost. And we have to pay IT more money per month for each employee that has mac laptop.

Before the recent cost cutting savings when Cisco stopped bundling a second power supply and a docking station with the Lenovo laptops, the cost of a Lenovo plus the docking station/port replicator, the costs of the two systems were pretty close to the same.

I haven't heard any verification that Mac support costs are higher than PC support costs. And, when Macs were first introduced to Cisco as a leased asset, you had to have your manager's approval to be self supported because IT was not yet ready to support Macs.

If you run all Cisco's containers and orchestration and Cisco business on your Apple MacBook, then no wonder Cisco Software does not work. When you shut down your Apple and go home, Cisco would shut down too. You should follow best practice and ask your manager, if you need help on where to execute Cisco containers and orchestration. It should not be running on your laptop.

Developer's don't run containers and orchestration on their laptops, they do development inside containers on their Macs and work out coding issues. Once the container is ready, they commit their changes and use orchestration to deploy it to a cloud. Why pay for cloud costs for a development instance.

As best practice. Instead of running applications on your Macintosh, you should instead request a CEL instance from your lab manager. Production apps should NOT be installed on Cisco employee's laptops. This same applies in ANY company. If you prefer Linux, you can always get a Lab PC/Laptop and install Linux directly on the laptop. There is no justification for Mac, when the requirement is for CentOS, RedHat, Ubuntu, Debian, etc.

It's so much easier to access lab and/or datacenter CEL VMs from a Mac than it is from Windows. Cisco has removed all documentation on how to install CEL on a laptop instead of Windows. We have to use "Cisco Trusted Devices" now, and running Linux (CentOS, RedHat, Ubuntu, Debian, etc.) doesn't meet the trusted device criteria. And having to sit in a Lab all day to work from a lab Linux PC/laptop is too much effort when I can simply use a Mac's native Terminal, SSH and bash/zsh shell to do my work directly on my laptop or connect my laptop directly to the hosts I need to work on from my desk/home/coffee shop instead of a noisy lab.

Why not just use a Dell and Microsoft Teams, Office, Word, Excel?

Cisco does NOT use Microsoft Teams. We have our own competing product.
Everyone at Cisco has to use Microsoft Office (Outlook, Word, Excel & PowerPoint) regardless of using a PC or a Mac because that is the office suite of software the company has standardized on. They also use MS Project and Visio, which causes problems for Mac users.

Everyone wants an expensive Mac and then wants Microsoft Office installed anyway?

Has to have Office installed anyway. Not a choice. See above comment.

They end up paying both Apple and Microsoft anyway?

Yes, they pay Apple for the expensive hardware & accessories, but Cisco like other large companies has a negotiated bulk rate for MS licenses.

I'm sure there's a lot of people who want it because it's cool & popular, or it's the "shiny" thing, but many people do want it because it's UNIX based and doesn't need a lot of tools installed to make it work. If you work on Linux systems all day, just having a Mac makes it easier to get to your Linux system.

My guess is it has nothing to do with the ability to work - Contractors get Lenovo.
It is to do with hiring new talent as all of Silicon Valley and other tech companies only give out Mac and think Mac is cool.

I take my macbook to cafes and restaurants and work from there. I don't wanna be seen with a PC laptop, it aint cool. Plus, Cisco has not given me a raise in last 4 yrs, so splurging on a macbook is a way to get "my money" back. And whenever I put in a new order, I request extra mice, keyboard, power brick, cords. Last requisition was close to $6k.
Who takes their ugly looking lenovo laptop to cafes? Must be some old dude who still types with 2 fingers. Booooooooo hoooooooooo!

Yes, they have it the wrong way around. The Macs were just horrible before the court case. As a result of the court case, Cisco got a commitment from Apple to improve the integration with Cisco products. So, it became more FEASIBLE to have a Mac as time when on, it wasn’t directly because of the case.

"Later Cisco started buying Apple for everybody."

No, this has never happened, the default for new hires & contractors is Lenovo laptop and has always been that way. For the MacBook, you have to gain manger's approval and is not always granted.

Really, there are more important things to worry about..

I smiled ironically to myself when I just typed "new hires"

Because Dells are pieces of c-ap.

No they are not. I’ve used Dell Latitude as my private laptop for 20 years (still on the 4th generation). They are rock solid, last for years and are partially upgrade able to give them a midlife kick.

I need my Mac because I need to program Linux in the Cloud.

Yeah, right. 95% of the people porting high-end Macs wouldn’t know cloud if they flew into it.
Mostly it was about posing and being cool. Anyway, the whole point of cloud is to take the workload away from the end device. And as somebody pointed out, we don’t do cloud anyway.

Mac's are Linux based.

No, the macOS is NOT Linux based, and never has been.

Years ago before Cisco IT controlled macs, they put so much c-ap on the windows devices it could take up to 20min to boot up

THAT I could go with. I used Macs in a previous job and I grew to hate them. But I almost changed back for that very reason. IT basically didn’t want to know about them, didn’t load them up with rubbish, and most importantly, didn’t try to “manage” them for you, a job at which they are horrendously incompetent.

High Tech talk on the Cisco layoff board.
Not surprised - a technology business.

Layoffs are about money.
The OP simply asked about the money.
It is not spent wisely.

It is a technology business.
Apparently a non-profit business, but still money matters.

STOP WASTING MONEY AN JUST USE A RASPBERRY PI !!

;)

I don't waste the company's money on a Mac like all the other Posers and Script Kiddies who ask for a MacBook and then right away take it to the IT Department to install Microsoft Windows on the Mac. BWAHAHA!

When Cisco gave me a Lenova laptop I just installed Manjaro Linux on that s—er and it worked perfectly. I did not dual boot (with Windows and Linux). I overwrote Windows entirely; gone; poof!

Later, the manager made me choose a MacBook thinking I could not install Linux, but I did the same thing with a MacBook (As long as it has an Intel CPU yes you can install Linux on a Mac). BWAHAHA

This pisses off some managers, but the fact is that this idea of having a Lenova with Manjaro saved Cisco money and I did not need to request an expensive silver plated MacBook like all the other executives. Cisco has money to burn though.

Oh, and YES, I could do just as much, if not more (for less) with Manjaro installed on a Lenova laptop.

After reading all these comments.

It is no small wonder that Cisco does NOT offer Cloud.

I heard that Microsoft has hinted that their upcoming operating system may be based on Linux?

"Macs are NOT Linux based. Mac OS was based on OpenBSD. No wonder people here don't understand why a developer or IT professional would want to use a Mac over a clunky Dell running Windows 10 (OH THE HUMANITY! Having to install Putty to ssh on to a jump host to trouble shoot an outage)"

FIRST:

The fact is that Macs are NOT Linux based. The Apple OS X File System is UNIX based (based on OpenBSD).

Open Berkeley Systems Distribution or OpenBSD was based on UNIX - Linux was not yet available. So, OpenBSD was not based on Linux. In fact, Linux came much later, when Linux Torvalds wrote the Linux operating system (in Finland). Apple OS is not based on Linux. It is based on OpenBSD. And further, it is the File System that is based on OpenBSD. The rest of the Apple OS is not based on OpenBSD or Linux.

SECOND:

Actually, there is no need to install Putty to SSH to a Host, when using Microsoft Windows 10 anymore. Windows 10 now comes with WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux). It also comes with Bash Subsystem for Linux). Actually you can choose the Linux OS that you prefer to run in Windows OS.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/faq

Frequently Asked Questions about Windows Subsystem for Linux
09/15/2020

What is Windows Subsystem for Linux (WSL)?
The Windows Subsystem for Linux (WSL) is a new Windows 10 feature that enables you to run native Linux command-line tools directly on Windows, alongside your traditional Windows desktop and modern store apps.

Who is WSL for?
This is primarily a tool for developers – especially web developers and those who work on or with open source projects. This allows those who want/need to use Bash, common Linux tools (sed, awk, etc.) and many Linux-first tools (Ruby, Python, etc.) to use their toolchain on Windows.

What can I do with WSL?
WSL provides an application called Bash.exe that, when started, opens a Windows console running the Bash shell. Using Bash, you can run command-line Linux tools and apps. For example, type lsb_release -a and hit enter; you’ll see details of the Linux distro currently running:

Macs are NOT Linux based. Mac OS was based on OpenBSD. No wonder people here don't understand why a developer or IT professional would want to use a Mac over a clunky Dell running Windows 10 (OH THE HUMANITY! Having to install Putty to ssh on to a jump host to trouble shoot an outage)

"This post was made just to cause trouble. Who actually cares what laptop people use."

Cisco used to tout, "Bring Your Own Device" (BYOD).

Some people actually did bring their own laptops.

Later Cisco started buying Apple for everybody.

They should go back to BYOD.

But just by owning a Mac (or an Apple iPhone, or even Apple AirBuds and an Apple Watch) does not mean that you automatically know how to use and know how to implement Docker / Kubernetes, Salt, Pepper, Ansible, TerraForm, GCP, AWS, etc, ad nauseum. If you are a student (at a hackathon) then by all means, go ahead and run your your production cloud on a laptop. But you are going to have to move it to a real cloud if you plan to monetize your idea. Most Cloud implementations are much more complex than an Apple .DMG file that runs on a single platform.

This post was made just to cause trouble. Who actually cares what laptop people use.

Lack of knowledge from commenters is staggering. Yes, HTML user interface for cloud applications can run in a browser. Core infrastructure does not.

Creating and managing a complex, geographically distributed, elasticly scalable, system comprised of microsevices requires tooling that doesn't run on Windows. Most of Microsoft's Azure's services and tooling runs on Linux not on Windows.

Given Cisco's complete lack of successful cloud services, I suspect that those ordering MACs don't use them for cloud development. Buying a MAC doesn't make you a cloud developer.

Googlers have a choice of any laptop, but some Googlers actually can do ALL their work from a Chromebook Pixel - II.

Chromebook can run a real version of linux (without VirtualBox or dual booting with Bootcamp). This means that you do not have to reboot a Chromebook to run your linux and you do not have to open a virtual machine on a chromebook. You can run Linux from the Chromebook command line (in developer mode).

Your mac only runs a filesystem based on Linux and requires a virtual machine or Bootcamp.

If only you actually knew jack sh– about Cloud.