Thread regarding Cisco Systems Inc. layoffs

Cisco is the same if not worse sociopathic corporate culture or cult like Jack Welch's GE, with constant layoffs, backstabbing, no team spirit and in general with "management by fear and intimidation". If you can handle it and survive until you earn your money then maybe, just maybe it might be worth staying, especially if you try to get out of poverty. If your own health, including mental health and balance in life is worth more, do not waste your time at Cisco, it will never change its screwed up ways...

Figure out what YOU are PASSIONATE about. Overall, Cisco employees are really nice, considerate, hard-working employees. I was LRd. I will continue to help my immediate team who are excellent people.

If you are not passionate about your work, the way you work, or who you work with, then I would look.

I loved the folks I was serving but 12 of them took the ER. Therefore, the LR came at the right time for me.

The biggest problem for me was alignment. Cisco doesn't have really progressive, creative, efficient workflows or processes. Sales and Marketing should be the most creative departments but everything is a 2005 approach.

My skill sets with Cisco regressed because I was getting attacked by a bullying director ( and his boss, a woman who did the same thing). They constantly lied and attacked the younger employees for their own incompetence. This is how this team helped Zoom beat Webex. They had the power to really influence the market but for the past 3 years, this team talked at their customers, all while giving themselves awards! These MEGLOMANIACS don't listen to anyone new, and they are all about the quantity of work, not the quality and self-promotion. THEY TALK AT EVERYONE. Some even espouse their Trumpian Politics ( e.g. Covid-19 is a conspiracy against Trump...OMG)

Cisco is losing market share from smaller new companies and losing employees to the competition. The leaders that run these departments don't ask questions about how they can help their staff meet these big goals.

Therefore, you will continually see the apathy in specific departments because it is more about keeping the level 12's and up, in power than it is about lifting up the team as a whole and supporting the common cause.

Your job should be fun and interesting and if it isn't then you probably have your answer.
Best of luck to you!

@4qlp+17svbjWR

You are such a hero, I am utterly impressed !

Really? So just because someone is at a company for a long time, they're "a permanent stain at a large company?" I know many people who are competitive, hard-working & talented people that Cisco has let go. Simply due to the fact they've been there for a long time and someone younger can do their job at a lower pay grade at a lower efficiency rate that the bean counters deem an acceptable cost vs. benefit ratio.

This is what’s wrong with Cisco in a nutshell:

1) After many rounds you still can’t form an actionable problem statement

2) You are unwilling to deal with risk management

3) You still haven’t expressed a single passion to do anything other than to not get tossed (as anyone with junior high school algebra can tell you, that is a dependent variable - you need to present and analyze the independent variables as well to answer the original question)

4) You assume hard work means anything unto itself

5) You assume youth leads to lower efficiency

6) The assumption of what many incorrectly call “talent” means anything

7) Much of the competition at Cisco has been both internal and destructive where cooperation would have served the company far better

Let’s use an ancient internet meme to make this clear. I’m an Impala without a JATO pack. I’ve worked with many Impalas with JATO packs. I can get up and down the mountain road with hairpin turns and cliff faces at a modest pace, but I actually complete the tasks so no one needs to go back and redo my work. Many with far more raw power than I have have slammed into or flew off the cliff faces blowing up and burning down everything around them.

Why is this?

I know I don’t know everything and I don’t do all that could be done because of it, but I work to continually improve. Most of the high-power lifers at Cisco think they do know everything and do the best that can be done and they spend decades making the same mistakes because there is no reason not to. I wasn’t being sarcastic about Principal Software Engineers not having high school level skills in functional decomposition, refactoring and scaling. The result is a high school kid who has learned these things and is willing to apply those skills and who craves growing more skills is more valuable than all the Cisco Principal Software Engineers I worked with combined.

By working at multiple companies, particularly ones where people know how to work smarter rather than harder, I’ve developed a much broader set of skills and perspectives. I still have an infinite way to go. Good companies do brutal and honest post mortems and work to get everyone to learn from each of our mistakes. At Cisco saying something wasn’t perfect is Heresy Against Doctrine and grounds for dismissal, incorrectly reenforcing the belief that they are doing the best that can be done.

I continue to develop skills after hours that initially seem orthogonal to my day job and as a result I end up being able to find solutions to problems that even Distinguished Engineers proclaimed were unsolvable. Because I draw from a broader experience and I don’t assume I’m smart enough to say a problem is unsolvable I work at it and surprise, come up with a viable solution in days. Again, no JATO pack so it was just a matter of trying.

In all but one company I’ve been tasked with gutting an engineering year or more of development where people “worked hard putting in 90 hour weeks and were experienced top performers!” Unfortunately the code didn’t work and those teams couldn’t fix it. I was given days to weeks to replace that code outright which I did and years later that code remained unchanged so I assert I got it sufficiently correct. It turns out one short implementation where the data is instantiated 43 times is far better than 43 giant poorly thought out buggy implementations of what are essentially the same thing. In one of the cases where I did this at Cisco my Director ripped my manager a new one and folded it over his head because “we only hire the top ten percent and they won’t write useless or excess code so it it’s not possible for someone [me] to check in significant negative KLOCs while adding functionality and not removing or breaking existing functionality.”

Young people will probably have to look up KLOC. Old people should cringe when they hear it is being used as a primary metric past the 1970s. Most Cisco software engineers and managers simply don’t know better because they don’t have to. The dashboards do all the work and people think what the dashboards measure is all that matters. This is how most people who aren’t continually forced to improve and develop a broader perspective become stains and fear having to jump to a new company.

I’m not saying this to hurt people. It’s my hope one good person who has become complacent wakes up and starts taking a more active role in building their career so if job jump is necessary they drive it rather than Cisco and they can thrive at their new job. Risk management isn’t just a personal skill, it’s a professional one as well.

Becoming competitive is a far more effective life strategy than becoming a permanent stain at a large company. So, what do you actually want to become good at?

Really? So just because someone is at a company for a long time, they're "a permanent stain at a large company?" I know many people who are competitive, hard-working & talented people that Cisco has let go. Simply due to the fact they've been there for a long time and someone younger can do their job at a lower pay grade at a lower efficiency rate that the bean counters deem an acceptable cost vs. benefit ratio.

I'm actually pretty damn good at what I do. I want to keep doing what I'm good at. I keep my skills current and marketable, but I'm getting to that age where my age works against me.

My career goal is to work somewhere there are performance based layoffs. Just because I'm not someones relative, friend, or from the same country shouldn't mean I lose my health insurance.

Say that again, louder. I don't think the ELT is listening. But I'm with you. At least with performance based reviews, a manager had to work to get rid of you because your not their relative, friend or from their country. And you can either work harder to make it harder for them to find fault with your work, work to switch to another team (if they'll let you and not actively try to block you), or find another job with another company if it gets too toxic.

My career goal is to work somewhere there are performance based layoffs. Just because I'm not someones relative, friend, or from the same country shouldn't mean I lose my health insurance.

My career goal is to work somewhere where there aren't layoffs, especially annual ones.

That’s not a career goal. I want a job where gorgeous women in bikinis feed me pizza all day but that’s not a career goal either and yet not much less likely to happen. Neutron Jack brought us layoffs in the 1980s and with zero percent interest rates and debt approaching infinity the world ‘round that’s not likely to change for the better. Becoming competitive is a far more effective life strategy than becoming a permanent stain at a large company. So, what do you actually want to become good at?

If you are a hardware engineer you might want to design a lot of small boards and systems. Cisco has some projects that can leverage and grow your skills but you may very well be better off at a smaller company. Companies where design is timing diagrams on graph paper are too small. If you want to work with the largest, deepest boards and understand the RF interference issues running long traces when your ASIC designers mess up the setup and hold times, deal with the expansion and contraction issues with parts than can heat and cool quickly physically distorting everything along the way, and deal with a myriad of other issues most engineers will never understand Cisco is one of a relatively few places in the world to do that work. Likewise if you want to design world class chips Cisco has unique opportunities. Cisco does some world class hardware. A lack of basic systems and management skills has still trashed some projects resulting in real talent being let go.

If you are a software engineer, do you want the title Principal Software Engineer and to check in 2.5 printfs a week while demonstrating a complete lack of knowledge of computer science, engineering, programming languages, the concept of an API, or high school level skills in functional decomposition, refactoring and scaling? Cisco is the only company I know where you can do this. Do you want to steal other people’s work and represent it as your own with full knowledge of and approval by management? You have more options but Cisco is definitely a contender. Do you want to take a leadership role in developing something new that hasn’t been done anywhere before where you build systems skills as well as software skills and produce things you aren’t embarrassed to put in front of a customer? Leave Cisco and find a competent ten person startup tackling a big problem. They’re exceedingly rare but you can do things most will never do in a career and even an Engineer 1 with one year of experience in the right setting could mop the floor with any Cisco Principal Software Engineer I worked with, and I worked with many. You’ll also likely end up divorced with less money than becoming a permanent stain at a large company.

If you are a manager and you are driven by power and status and dream of being a completely incompetent Director or Vice President lying about why your one month project is five years late before going out golfing, you need to work at a company that can afford to completely ignore billion dollar mistakes. Cisco is excellent for this. If you want to lead a team that produces new and innovative products and features without creating infinite technical debt find an established small to medium sized company. By definition long lived companies that can’t afford failure haven’t failed.

Independent of role, well executed job jumps mean more skills and more money as well as an easier time making further jumps. I’d hire someone with five good four year jobs over a Cisco engineer with 20 years starting out of college and a resume that says they’ve “optimized operational reporting to ideally understand and manage system state and transitions enhancing customer deployment scenarios” (translation: they checked in 2500 printfs.)

These are a subset of roles at Cisco with incomplete lists of tradeoffs to be examined. One minor change in a team can completely change many of those tradeoffs and either employer or employee may realize a quick parting is necessary. Preparing not only for the parting half but the next joining is a critical part of managing a career and simply wishing you won’t have to deal with it is an extremely weak strategy. I’ve seen too many friends crushed by this approach. Don’t let this happen to you.

You haven’t presented any interests, skills, responsibilities or career goals other than to work somewhere where there aren’t layoffs. Have you considered getting a job in the 1950s?

My career goal is to work somewhere where there aren't layoffs, especially annual ones. I'd be more than happy to hop in a time machine & go back to the '50's, '60's or '70's. At least back then, people could manage to work for one or two companies in their entire career. And companies actually had retirement plans that vested after 10, 15 or 20 yrs, not 401(k)'s where you have to invest yourself and hope the market does well and that the "bubble" doesn't burst just as you need to retire.

Companies used to invest in their employees because they were considered an asset, not a resource or liability.

My Dad retired and is still living very well after 18 yrs of retirement. He never had a 401(k) because it wasn't offered at his last company which still offered a retirement plan that they contributed into on his behalf, just like the first two companies he worked with the majority of his career. Between his two 10-yr vested plans and his 5-yr vested plan & social security, he gets four checks every month.

OK BOOMER

Ok Millennial. When you’re 20 you can jump out of aero planes, ride motorbikes and hike alone through the Amazon. But when the responsibilities catch up, and you have to be there because others are relying on you, then being in the latest, kewl, trendy SW-SWeatshop that has high risk of imploding but the latest X-Box in the break room might not be the best choice.
And in the US that is especially so because of the screwed up way they deal with health insurance.

You haven’t presented any interests, skills, responsibilities or career goals other than to work somewhere where there aren’t layoffs. Have you considered getting a job in the 1950s?

Stay or go. In the end no-one will care but you.

Run

I think you should stay until they finally kick your a– out of the company. End of sarcasm.

Get out!

Cisco is big so if you are unhappy in your role or your group, you can try to move to another group. But if you are unhappy with the company, you should leave for your growth as well as your health and sanity.

LR is not just for hitting the numbers but also is misused by certain managers to get rid of people they don’t like or get rid of people to bring in their own people. I was instructed by my manager to put a strong performer on the bottom because they didn’t like that person and so they can have a req. to bring in their own people. Favoritism is a true thing. That’s when I knew it was no longer a safe nor stable place to be.

Left 8 years ago and never look back.

You should look now if you are unhappy. LR is only going to be more frequent in the future.

Good luck to you.

I got LR’d so take it for what that’s worth. I worked at Cisco for 12 years and since 2013 I have worried about getting laid off every single year. ... My advice is work Cisco to get some experience and get out. Don’t get too comfortable being uncomfortable like I did. Mentally...Aint worth it.

I'm sorry to hear you got LR'd after 12 yrs. You're right it's not worth it to get stressed out over it.

My first time to be LR'd was in '11. I was on a PIP because my manager found out that I'd gotten on his boss's bad side, so he was working to get me out even though his boss took the ER in '11. I knew I would be on the LR list when they finally got around to notifying us 2 months after the announcement that they were laying off thousands. I knew when it would happen, so I had my resume ready, was starting to apply to jobs, etc. and had a new job lined up with a start date in less than 30 days, so the remaining 5 months of severance pretty much doubled the bonus amounts he screwed me out of in the two years it took him to get rid of me (one year to put me at the bottom of the rankings and the second year to put me on a PIP).

The second time came as a complete surprise. For the longest time, essential IT teams were not getting targeted. Our team was over worked and understaffed, so we never expected to get hit, but bam, the '16 LR was announced during the earnings call and impacted employees were told the very next day. Again, no notice and no expectation, so no dread. Just an "aw, sh–, now what do I do?" and scramble to get my resume ready, start looking and land a new role. This time I was getting my bonuses as an employee, so between the previous 2 bonuses, and 5 months severance, I was able to live comfortably for the 90 days it took me to find the next role.

Now I'm back a third time. I really don't care if Cisco lets me go again. Between the bonuses I've banked, the unused portions of the two previous LR's banked, I have a bigger nest egg than the packages they're offering so I just do my job and not worry about it. I'll gladly take a third payout. I'm just glad I dodged it this year because it's harder to look for a job right now. Phone interviews and skype/zoom calls w/ potential employers don't allow you to see how they really work and how the team interacts with each other.

https://www.thelayoff.com/post/@pvb+17svbjWR

they agree with his social agenda. I think that supply chain or business tends to lean left, while engineering is more conservative as many internationals are working here.

It’s a point of contention if you agree or disagree. The division disabled communication with peers.

I got LR’d so take it for what that’s worth. I worked at Cisco for 12 years and since 2013 I have worried about getting laid off every single year. I’ve gotten high ipfs, promotions, bonuses, and raises and still never felt secure. It impacts whether you’re going to sign a lease for renting you home and whether you’re ready to buy a house or have another kid.
Luckily I have some interviews lined up already and even though it felt bad getting LRd it’s almost refreshing to get up out of there and not having to worry about IF I’ll have a job next quarter or not.
My advice is work Cisco to get some experience and get out. Don’t get too comfortable being uncomfortable like I did. Mentally...Aint worth it.

@ubq+17svbjWR, I would like to be called a fool if Cisco pays me a quarter of million plus stocks. Why not :)

The answer is obvious if you closely follow all the threads in this website. Chucks would not have made him like a fool in Check-In if he had come to this forum first.

@nfm+17svbjWR "you're"

talkers are rewarded at cisco
Plain and simple

Several BUs are led by many managers and directors who haven't written a single line of code in a decade, haven't actually shipped a new product in their lives, and have risen the ranks because they were efficient outsourcers. Employees who are capable or effective are side-lined or worse fired during these LRs: Especially folks in Silicon Valley offices.

Every company that I have worked for since I left college in the 1990s has used LRs as a means of cost control (there are other valid reasons but that’s the main one). Cisco is no different.

I’ve been laid off three times by different companies and, each time, I’ve managed to go on to bigger and better things.

For the most part it’s not personal and there is an element of logic to the process. Get rid of the more senior, more expensive staff. It also helps keep the LR numbers down. The flaw in Cisco’s process is that it doesn’t look beyond the LR. What I see this year (more than previous LRs) are a lot of very capable, very talented individuals being let go with no clear plan to backfill their knowledge.

To the OP, if you are still enjoying your work there’s no reason to leave right now. But, always have a plan B. Keep your resume and training up to date, build your network outside Cisco, give yourself options. Many people have found that the grass is not always greener elsewhere. I’ve lost count of the number of people that left Cisco and returned within the year, although not so many recently.

I’ve worked for worse employers than Cisco but I can’t say any have been better overall.

As for the best places to work thing, life goes on, get over it.

Stop it with bashing that check-in already. Why do you want the company to turn into a funeral house? Cisco layoffs aren't new, they happen every damn year, it's unfortunately the reality of working at this company and all the surprised Pikachu faces are just nonsensical. Of course they'll celebrate the best workplace achievement. Paid or not, it's Cisco's #1 PR move. I'm sorry for those who got impacted but you knew what you signed up for...

I joined Cisco exactly for that reason; to raise a family.

Fortunate to have had the opportunity to raise them and be able to (almost) make through getting them all the way through college without being LR'd.

Not sure if those types of guarantees exist here today. I was lucky to be in right place, right time, with several very skilled Directors looking out for me.

Once they moved on, our group was dismantled.

Not sure if there is such a thing as job security but was thankful to my team management to provide a good fifteen years to raise them.

Think I was super lucky. Not sure if that run could be replicated in today's different climate.

Peace.

There is a divide within Cisco I must say. I believe that one reason why some people like Chuck and the ELT in the Checkins is that they agree with his social agenda. I think that supply chain or business tends to lean left, while engineering is more conservative as many internationals are working here. I don't know where they come, but I would say that a handful of them like being America and be proud of it and seeing spoiled kids complaining about everything makes them laugh. Let's see how the ELT teams reacts after the US elections.

You should look for new opportunities. You can be sad or angry the best years of your life.