If anything will be HON's downfall, it'll be the fact that the ELT is allowing the best employees with the most experience to walk out without trying to keep them.
26 replies (most recent on top)
HIPAC donations will eliminate those pesky taxes. Make sure to attend a few stand up co-----l parties in the beltway, get the ear of the lawmakers, and use phrases like...."If we don't do it, Siemens or Mitsubishi will.
Do what? Offshore everything.
Where can we send the campaign donation payment to?
NOT paying taxes IS active theft.
This anti-socialist simp will now prove it to the troll.
By not paying taxes, you have received the benefits of many services without paying for them at the agreed upon price. That price is elastic, based on capacity to pay - in Hon parlance, it is Priced To Value.
Here’s a short list of services you steal when you fail to pay taxes:
- clean water
- clean air
- non-toxic food
- use of roads (to deliver goods and services like non-toxic food that you buy to live)
- airplanes that don’t fall out of the sky
- schools
- safe* dr-gs to heal, and help prevent disease (* safe meaning the opposite of snake-oil or tainted dr-gs pre-FDA US)
- coast guard to protect our mercantile trade economy
- foreign exchange stability
- over-sight of N industries (that would otherwise happily pillage you like Hon does as employees)
Do I need to go on? These are macro-economic scale services that we, as a country, have collectively assigned to be paid via tax. You get the direct or indirect benefit and hence pay taxes. This is not socialism, it’s not wealth redistribution. This is bedrock of America that so many people prattle on about loving, but are clueless about.
Granted, there’s always haggling going on about the current pricing strategy. And that’s healthy. As long as all the partied are negotiating in good faith. Unfortunately, one of the parties has been over run by greedy individuals that are negotiating for their own power and not the benefit of voters, society, or the country. I personally call them traitors. Which are you?
Note: Was this post taken down for what the mods consider to be unacceptable language? I have made some adjustments as an attempt to help the original poster. Let's see if this one sticks...
You don't like the idea of a military? Thats ok. We don't have to agree on that.
I myself would prefer if I didn't pay taxes. I'm sure no one wants to pay taxes. The question is what your solution in place of having taxes?
For example, how you propose to pay for police, firefighters, schools, teachers, roads, highways, and bridges? With thoughts and prayers? As a college educated individual I am sure that you have all the answers.
Still haven’t disproved that taxation is theft. You listed a bunch of excuses for the application of violence to steal people’s resources.
“Soldiers back home from deployment” from where and to defend who? What is being defended when stationed in Europe, Korea, or the Middle East?
Socialist simps can’t disprove Taxation is Theft and it destroys your moral argument of wealth redistribution. You can’t take from the wealthy without using force. Using force to take something that doesn’t belong to you is theft. Children understand this but socialist simps can’t.
You say "Taxation is Theft"? What an incredibly naive and meaningless thing to say....
We have a top notch military that exists to protect us from external threats. Money is required to maintain that advantage, lots of it. How are we supposed to pay for that without taxes? Is the tooth fairy going to foot the bill? How about Santa Claus?
Our troops need gear, logistical support, and most importantly they need to be cared for when they come back home from deployment. Why? Because thats the least we can do in return for their service and sacrifice. If your attitude is that "taxation is theft" then you in fact are saying that you do not support our troops.
The same applies to our police force, our firefighters, our teachers etc. Realize that saying "taxation is theft" is essentially the same as chanting "defund the military" or "defund the police"...
your opinions are obviously the prevailing opinion going forward in society and ultimately, industry. It seems pretty obvious, since your response is focused at a posting which has since been removed. I'm not sure what the scandalous or dangerous opinions were that I posted, but for now, you are apparently arguing with the wind...and through the miracle of technology and censorship, you are prevailing.
Moral: it's good to be in the right side of Wokeness.
Post got deleted: Taxation is Theft. Empirically proven if you don’t pay they will come to destroy your life.
@3cqg
Where in my posts do I advocate for socialism? I made my point perfectly clear that the next logical step is to embrace worker owned cooperatives as a valid and proven alternative. In that configuration the people call the shots and are co-owners of the company ... not investors, a board of directors, or government bureaucrats.
Government ownership and direction of industries is not viable for the long term, nor is it viable for most industries in general. History has proven that fact except for unique cases of crisis such as situations where the private sector has neither the appetite nor the financial incentive to engage such as during WWII or the Apollo program.
I also did not claim that the private sector would not be capable of something like the Apollo program ... today. Now, with companies like SpaceX that goal is clearly within the realm of feasibility. My contention was to push back against the claim that the war effort during WWII or the Apollo program was a byproduct of entrepreneurial billionaires stepping up to the plate to meet market demand. It clearly wasn't in those particular cases because government had to step in to make it happen.
I actually like Elon Musk and applaud his achievements as a disruptor to a variety of industries. The taxpayer will ultimately save quite a bit of money using SpaceX versus the old way of doing things. I just don't agree with every viewpoint he has and thats perfectly ok because thats what free speech is for.
I just reject the notion that capitalist enterprise is the only valid configuration for doing business going forward. As I have been clear this entire time, alternatives clearly exist that don't involve government ownership or management. The bottom line is this:
- - If you believe in the idea of free speech then criticism of our current systems and the status quo should not be taboo.
- - If your natural response to any type of criticism like this is to resort to using red-scare McCarthyist tactics then you have completely bought into a defense mechanism that was designed to maintain the status quo and the interests of the 1%
And, in MY rant immediately below, I forgot to add that 20% of top payers of Income Tax also paid 79% of those taxes...and that's up significantly from 2019...I thought that the former President was supposed to have benefitted the rich and dropped their taxes? HUH. BTW, Ref: CNBC for this factoid, as well. For those unable to follow along, those are the wealthy that everyone believes do not pay their "fair share". Frankly, the statistics say that the 61% who pay not one red cent are in fact the ones "not paying their fair share".
If the bottom 61% pay nothing, and the top 20% pay almost all, who is being screwed here, anyway? Now that the majority have no skin in the game, but still vote, do you think the % paying nothing is going to grow or shrink?
There's a thread around here somewhere about secret raises. If you didn't get one then that's just too bad. You can cry with the PTSD guy in another thread.
Hello!!! You just noticed this now. This has been going on for many years now. Glad I retired 6 months ago. Life is Good!
@2sgf TLDR
Plagiarized? I will take that as a compliment. In this case I will dedicate that post just for you friend.
In the meantime, as a college educated individual, I am sure that you are just overflowing with better ideas. We would love to hear about your solutions. No need to be bashful.
@2sgf You sound exactly like a liberal professor in an economics class I once had to take.
Pretty sure he plagiarized all of his rants too.
I find it odd that almost every American claims to be a staunch supporter of democracy, yet most spend their lives embedded in regressive, totalitarian institutions. I sincerely hope that the younger generations soundly reject the status quo. The death of corporatocracy and parasitic capitalism is inevitable. Workers must demand democracy. Ask Darius "why he doesn't believe in democracy" at the next townhall (if you are already planning on leaving the company).
The short term (band aid) solution is for workers to band together and make demands through collective bargaining. That is nothing new. The robber barons were the parasitical billionaires of the previous era and workers had to band together in order to overcome that. Today is no different. Workers divided are workers easily defeated.
The long term solution is to realize that economic systems come and go. Times change and people find better ways of doing things. Slavery came and left. Feudalism came and left. Looking back it is obvious why these systems failed yet leaving them behind took a massive undertaking. The people that were best served by those systems (i.e. the kings and 'billionaires' of that time) were also the ones who fought tooth and nail to keep things exactly as they were. Today is no different. Today's billionaires do everything they can to maintain the status quo:
- - They own the most shares of large corporations and therefore can ensure that those corporations continue to serve their financial needs at the expense of a continuously decimated workforce.
- - They are the major donors in political campaigns (for any party and candidate) to make sure no one gets brave enough to get in their way. Any politician that promises to fix the economy, bring jobs back etc is simply telling you something that they actually can't and won't deliver on. To do so would be akin to biting the hand that feeds ... so politicians ultimately prioritize their own future prospects (for re-election or post-political life) over those who they have been elected to serve.
- - The billionaires own the main stream news media to ensure that topics discussed remain within a range that they prefer or at least tolerate. It should therefore be no surprise that these news outlets rarely criticize the current economic system. Why hurt something that works perfectly for them right? It should also be no surprise that these outlets are hyper focused on hot button political topics and social issues. These topics are incredibly effective in keeping the public distracted and divided ... great for keeping the status quo. Instead of being presented with useful news you get to hear these outlets sing the praises of the ultra rich and argue why they are essentially God's gift to humanity. As a bonus you get to see them launch themselves into space with their little McRockets as they show off their incredible dexterity in passing skittles into each others mouths while floating in zero-G.
Why do we allow fat cat parasites like this to exist while the level of inequality in this country is in line with pharaonic times in Egypt ... four thousand years ago? How do we allow these people, who essentially have unlimited amounts of money, to pay virtually no taxes while we have jobless and homeless veterans sleeping in the street? Why are we breaking our backs for these people? For a lousy wage? Lousy health insurance? We have somehow been taught to idolize these people despite all the problems that their greed begets. Christ himself said that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter heaven. At this point it should be no wonder what his thoughts are in regards to our billionaire overlords.
Suffice to say that we need to move on to a better system than this. Capitalism was a decent improvement over feudalism but it ultimately has outgrown its usefulness and frankly has been falling apart in past decades. Years ago a janitor would have been able to make enough money to afford a house, a car, a stay at home wife, three kids, vacations etc. Neither he, nor his wife, needed a college degree yet he was still able to afford to send his own kids to college. Fast forward to today, what do we have? Older folks who can't afford to retire and as a result will have to work until their health completely fails.... Younger folks who can't afford a house or children yet are loaded up to the brim with student debt.... Sick people are overwhelmed with medical bills and unable to pay...
The capitalist system we have now is broken because there is no democracy in it. Having a fat cat board of directors who have been put in place by billionaires is designed to serve the needs of the few over the needs of the many. They have the voting power to decide what happens in the company, you don't. They decide what product or service is made, how it's produced, who produces it, and what is done with the profits. Board decisions like this affect thousands if not hundreds of thousands people who have no vote or say in the matter. Soviet socialism failed for the same reasons. All they did was replace the board of directors with government officials. In the end it was still a tiny minority of people who were unilaterally making decisions behind closed doors which affected everyone else.
Worthy alternatives to these failed systems already exist and have existed since the 1700s. They are known as worker owned cooperatives. By design these organizations do away with the idea of investors, capital, and the board of directors by placing ownership and voting power directly in the hands of employees. These cooperatives are democratic by design since upon joining one you become equals parts worker, director, and owner. More than a billion people in 96 countries are members of a cooperative while generating an annual turnover of $2.2 trillion. The largest worker owned cooperative is Mondragon Corporation in Spain with a headcount of 80,000 employees. Cooperatives such as these are a logical alternative to what we have now yet not many people know about them or realize their ability to scale. Ultimately these would exist as an alternative to capitalist organizations and therefore people would have the freedom to choose between the two. These cooperatives would have to be grown from the bottom up however a legal mechanism could also be implemented in which existing businesses could eventually be converted to cooperatives. This mechanism would ensure that whenever an existing business is looking to sell itself or go public ... the employees of said business would have the legal right to buy out the business before any outsider can. This kind of mechanism is referred to as the right of first refusal since the employees would have to first refuse the purchase of the business before an outside entity can try to buy it.
Imagine a country that helped people finance cooperatives instead of paying them to stay home...
@1zft, in order to claim our power to stop it, we probably need more information on what needs to be done. What approach would you recommend?
You start out with some sound points but ultimately fall short on the conclusion. Yes, industries begin, grow, and fade but that does not give a corporation license to crush its own domestic workforce. The constant threats, RIFS, and furloughs of workers is not simply an unavoidable consequence of doing business. The continuous offshoring of jobs is not some divine law of markets. That kind of talk is rubbish from the gospel of wall street. These tactics were not "business as usual" in decades past so why should we simply roll over and accept them now?
The real truth is that the company goes to great extremes in order to maximize profits for billionaire shareholders (the 1 percent). All this comes at the expense of employees in the form of immense stress, overwork, toxicity, unpaid overtime, RIFS and ultimately site closures. The company could off-course tip the scales back in favor of workers but that would mean that the billionaires make fewer billions ... heaven forbid if they can't buy as many yachts this year!
The rise and fall of industries is the pattern in the foreground but there is a much more critical overall trend in the background: the exporting of work to cheap labor, the importing of cheap labor to the work, and the elimination of jobs through automation. This country used to be where good jobs were created and where good jobs stayed. Back then people were not treated like trash. That was before investor greed became an acceptable excuse to treat the workforce like cattle. Greed was not the norm then and it does not have to be the norm now.
Jobs will never remain in this country so long as wall street in is control. Investors now treat this country like some parasitical incubator ... use the talent to build up the company, crush the talent until no one is left, then move operations overseas, then buy more mansions and yachts. This is the business cycle that the 1 percent do not want the public to discuss because it's the ugly truth and it needs to end now. The only reason this spineless exploitation continues is because people have not yet realized that they have the power to stop it. That I can assure you, is changing as we speak.
I worked at Arby's and McD's before join Honeywell. Honwell is more better.
@1nvp is mostly correct- certainly about the focus shift of engineering talent over the decades. From an economic investment standpoint, traditional Aerospace went from a giant to a dwarf over the last 50 years. If one grew up in that industry, it's hard to wrap your head around it. That said, engineering talent is still required to perform on existing plans (both new products and maintaining the legacy). Just ask Boeing how it works when engineering talent is not the focus of a development.
A lot of people here seem to think Honeywell is an aerospace company , or a buildings control company, or an oil processing company. They are wrong.
Honeywell is not a "" company. It is just a company.
It will do whatever it can to make money.
It would hire a legion of 7 year olds to stand in driveways and sell lemonaid if it was profitable.
Brain Drain is just the more aware people noticing that aerospace, and oil, and building controls are not great businesses right now. The world media has made business a winner take all game. In the late 80's and 90's every smart kid went into finance (including Elon Musk). Then dot.com. Then mobile devices... clean energy ... AI ... electric cars... cheap space.
Honeywell could not care less about the "smart people" that are moving.
Leadership made the business decisions that are forcing those people to leave years ago. They know what is happening and consider it necessary.
If you didn't see it coming... climb higher.
Exactly this. Behind the scenes they are crushing domestic workers and in the aftermath, when there is not enough people left, the corporate big wigs will hop onto the mass media podium to declare that the US workforce is inadequate, and that other options must be pursued in order to continue operations.
This is how they "manufacture" a public narrative that allows them to call for:
- - Moving jobs overseas
- - Replacing people with machines and automation
- - Bringing in foreign individuals on sponsored visas (i.e. people who will work harder, longer, and for less pay under the corporate threat of being deported back to their home country)
They are in danger of loosing the last remaining talent and product knowledge. Programs WILL collapse. They are on the verge now. But it appears ALT does not get that with their insulting “incentive” offer. Just proved they really have no clue what is actually going on.
I will continue to give Honeywell my best DUUURRRR!!!
… will… ???
Best employees, most experience, that means $$$'s and ELT is more than happy to shed that burden. To them a FTE is a FTE, capability means nothing.