Thread regarding Wells Fargo & Co. layoffs

Product Owners are just glorified secretaries/agile coaches

I came to WF from other large banks. I've been a Product Owner for over a decade. I accepted a position as a Product Owner at WF. The role only very modestly resembles a product owner. I am:

  1. A glorified secretary.
    I am expected to get on calls and edit Power Points. I have not used PP in any
    appreciable capacity for over 15 years.
    I am expected to create roadmaps in PP. Roadmaps are a product manager
    function. Not a Product Owner function. Also, who uses PP?
    I am expected to shuffle around Kanban/Scrum boards and update
    extensive information because "teams" that should be one team got into a fight
    over a decade ago and cannot be asked to work together now or join the same
    call.
  2. I am a glorified agile coach. Except WF hasn't implemented anything approaching standard agile. And no team wants to implement agile or is concerned with agile principals. They want to pass the agile maturity test.
    I am asked to schedule meetings so we can talk about what meetings we need to
    schedule and how no one wants the meetings but needs the meetings to pass
    the test.
    I am asked to create documentation so people can fill out forms/tickets as
    desired. When challenged with if a ticket needs a how to form to fill out it has
    become too complex and no one will fill it out, I am met with ridicule.
  3. De facto Product/Project Manager
    I am expected to fill out roadmaps. This is not a PO function.
    I am expected to attend meetings, with no explanation, last minute, to go in front
    of a firing squad of 6-8 managers about what is the roadmap, why are we
    delayed? What are you doing?
  4. I just took a Product Owner test, that asked nothing about being a PO. It was a quiz of the bank's overwhelming amount of acronyms.
    The bank uses so many acronyms and WF specific jargon as to render any
    communication nearly unreadable.
  5. Information is hoarded and not disseminated.
    Upon hire it was assumed I learned by osmosis. No job responsibilities were
    detailed. No policies or procedures relayed. No documentation provided. No
    transfer of knowledge given. Everything is assumed. And when I am missing that
    assumed knowledge It is assumed I am an id--t and "everyone knows that".
    When I asked why I received the ranking I did I was told "I do not know". When I
    asked what was expected to improve I was told, "I do not know." When I asked
    what the job expectations were I was told, "they are being written". When I asked
    by what measure are employees ranked, I was told "oh those people keep me
    happy".
  6. Glorified therapist. I swear someday I do more mediation and interpersonal conflict management at WF than I do in my private practice.
    Speaking of the mental health space. I work for a charity. I help counsel those in
    the midst of mental health breakdowns. I've spoken to more than one WF
    employee.

Ahh, I am not shocked fraud is rampant here. What is shocking is it is not more rampant.

We are being set up to fail, so those who are failing at the top can feel like they are not the failures.

IDGAF. I'm put.

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Post ID: @OP+1hWTcQLa

24 replies (most recent on top)

This sounds familiar. You should all quit. There are many jobs out there and WFC doesn’t know how to care for its employees. Cr-p managers with bad vision for the future covering their own a$$e$. Terrible 401K with high fees via Empower and only 1 time of year match? My new job matches EVERY pay period and in cash, not failing stock shares worth less each day. Just quit! They need you more than they know and more than you need them.

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Post ID: @7ebb+1hWTcQLa

@OP+1hWTcQLa

Reads to me like you should plan a return to your feet up on the desk in a recliner mode. Is this your first job with deliverables?

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Post ID: @5zcr+1hWTcQLa

We switched from waterfall to agile/scrum about 4 years ago. The transition was awful and we still see effects from it. No BRDs? Really!? Good luck fixing production issues 2+ years down the road. No traceability leads to messy code and more defects. Ask me how I know.

PO's feel like managers but aren't. No authority beyond "I'll tell your actual manager". The position really does seem like a glorified secretary or product manager.

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Post ID: @5yxh+1hWTcQLa

and most product owners aren't even sufficiently licensed.....

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Post ID: @3jco+1hWTcQLa

OMG this! I'm a contractor and my last gig was at Cisco. Can you imagine the whiplash coming from Silicon Valley to the Dark Ages?

@1ljt+1hWTcQLa
"I too am a PO w/o title or pay. It has been over a yr and mngr refuses to write his convoluted process down. Only uses ppt and refuses to use jira or confluence. Still works in SP, email. Instead of laying workers off get rid of the antiquated mngrs who refuse change and have zero tech skills"

You have my heartfelt sympathy.

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Post ID: @1imk+1hWTcQLa

Boy if this isn't the truth, What is it about Wells that everything is in Excel?

@zmr+1hWTcQLa
"I was surprised that your list didn’t include that everything is kept on an excel spreadsheet."

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Post ID: @1moz+1hWTcQLa

A PO certainly needs some kind of road maps even if you expect to have a Product Manager. How are you supposed to implement their high level roadmap if you don't have a low level roadmap? Your job should be to ensure projects are developed to implement the high level roadmap and ensure current projects are implementing the business requirements correctly without breaking anything. If you don't do that, your really don't "own" anything.

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Post ID: @1laj+1hWTcQLa

From my many years (from the Norwest days) perspective, the underlying issue is that EVERY time WF brings in a new management, a new philosophy, or a new tool they spend absolutely zero time finding out how work is actually done day-to-day from the people who actually do the work.

Managers, who do not have a clue how their subordinates actually accomplish daily tasks, naturally paint a rosy picture to their manager. That manager, who similarly has no clue regarding the WF created roadblocks impeding actual work getting done and similarly have zero clue as to how work is actually done, pass a similarly rosy picture on to their manager, and on, and on. By the time the 'message' gets to upper management, they can't figure out why the masses are dissatisfied and leaving the company in droves because the message they have being given is 'everything is working like a well oiled machine, people love working here. It's just a few disgruntled employees who are causing the problems'.

If management at all levels is too lazy to investigate how the real world WF works day-to-day, we'll just continue to reshuffle the deck chairs on the Titanic.

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Post ID: @1arp+1hWTcQLa

I too am a PO w/o title or pay. It has been over a yr and mngr refuses to write his convoluted process down. Only uses ppt and refuses to use jira or confluence. Still works in SP, email. Instead of laying workers off get rid of the antiquated mngrs who refuse change and have zero tech skills

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Post ID: @1ljt+1hWTcQLa

Our area merged into one that had been implementing Agile for two years. We had a large department meeting and those of us who just joined were amazed that two years in so many simple things were not know. There was one agile "coach" expert who had all of the answers but when I asked why it wasn't written down somewhere for everyone to know I was told that's the way Agile worked. No training, call someone who has done it before. Now two years into our own Agile journey it has only gotten worse. Dozens of versions of Jira running, Confluence as well. Couldn't find a thing without links from someone. Yes, code change went in faster but the business goals those changes were a part of slowed down.

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Post ID: @1olw+1hWTcQLa

I can't say I'm surprised. The company tends to b@stardize many things. Agile is no different.

I haven't been impressed with the scrum masters I've run into. If I have to tell them all the tasks and everything else they're not helping me. When you have a good PM they typically have a good idea of getting tasks, milestones, etc. figured out even if I have to help them with info/clarification.

Glorified therapist-- Also not a surprise. I can't tell you how many times I've had to play that role on a project. I'm an IC but on a bunch of projects I've had to herd the cats, so to speak, because people can't speak candidly or speak have thoughtful discussions on how to work out a solution w/out being insecure, or worried about who is in what sandbox.

Who uses PP? everybody. Is it the right place for a product roadmap? Some yes, some probably no.

bottom line -- tons of dysfunction in the company, maturity on agile is not great. Agile is a methodology--it's a tool-- not the goal. It's treated as the goal to some extent. The issue is having discipline to figure out WTF a product should be over time, what the customer journeys are and having some friggin' common sense to get from A to B.

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Post ID: @1zbn+1hWTcQLa

The implementation was done backwards here: take a bunch of BA they were going to lay off and make them SM, have everyone take an hour long develop you on agile, label eng managers as PO, wait 3 years then try to find PM or label directors as PM.

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Post ID: @1ufz+1hWTcQLa

lol you are about to have a title change too...if you are an L1 product owner you will be called a product analyst when your team joins jira align (this is mandatory). The good news is that L2 product owners will start taking on the strategic aspects bad news is that although it will be mandatory it will be as theoretical as agile adoption is at wells fargo

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Post ID: @1qsr+1hWTcQLa

@1hly+1hWTcQLa I was working on an enterprise issue before I left. Meeting with a dozen or so teams a week that had a common remediation for each app. I have been meeting with one app for about 6 weeks when they realized they would not make the required deadline.

Suddenly they’re scheduling 3 calls a week with me instead of one 30 minute check point. First time I hear they have a scrum master, a product owner, a project manager and a remediation “person”. Before that, again for WEEKS, it was app manager and a developer.

So glad I moved on.

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Post ID: @1ylp+1hWTcQLa

As a lead product manager you are absolutely correct on all points. I see it every day. We also have a scrum master who does nothing and a “project manager” who also does nothing.

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Post ID: @1hly+1hWTcQLa

Produce Owners are just recycled Product Managers that were overpaid worthless sacks of s-it. No change in new role. Agile is slowing everything down and Saul believes the metrics his directs are feeding him. So sad.

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Post ID: @1dtr+1hWTcQLa

Product Manager=Strategic vision/manage roadmaps

Product Owner=Tactile, implements PM vision.

https://www.productplan.com/learn/product-manager-vs-product-owner/

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Post ID: @1agw+1hWTcQLa

I would think a product owner should have a roadmap of what the product will look like in 3, 5 10 and 20 years.

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Post ID: @fwu+1hWTcQLa

I was surprised that your list didn’t include that everything is kept on an excel spreadsheet.

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Post ID: @zmr+1hWTcQLa

No.

Product owners are very valuable and make really good $$$.

They also climb the ladder fastest as they are connected with the product and the customer.

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Post ID: @mgf+1hWTcQLa

Make sure you get these 32 app surveys done.

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Post ID: @gwd+1hWTcQLa

The acronyms at WF are ridiculous, along with the buzzwords. Hated it. Distracted from the topic trying to figure out what it meant. And terrible when used with customers. False sense of superiority. Sorry your position has been reduced to what you described, and it sounds like you will fall out of date using old processes, theories. Best to move along before you fall behind in the industry.

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Post ID: @hjp+1hWTcQLa

I seriously feel your pain. I'm not a PO but my job works with them extensively and my non-existent training has made things brutal. Best of luck to you, I'm shopping around.

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Post ID: @txn+1hWTcQLa

At least you are glorified.
Underlying my position are the words 'grunt' and 'prole'.
Feel good!

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Post ID: @bfl+1hWTcQLa

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