What this will accomplish.... Level the playing field for the real workers -- band 3's and band 4's. No more bs with band 3's that should be band 4's getting hosed. On the management front, save a bunch of MIP money or even salaries by letting go of managers that contribute nothing. The managers will fight it out to be the MIP winners and manage 20 plus people. They will either do a good job of managing the 20 or be hated and resented by all they manage who get no MIP. Perfect situation for all. Finally some good changes.
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So when is the reorg suppose to be annouce?
I'm in the PSE group in Phx. I turn 62 next month and have 39 years invested. I'm a Band 4 and yes happy with my salary however I've been waiting to get out and this is just another sign or nudge to do just that.
With my two retirements one from Bendix snd one from Garrett plus SS I'll be making 5200/month not bad.
Good luck to all. What a c-ap hole of a company!
@ZdXX72v-6goj, yes, test engineering has always been view and treated as second class engineering and as an unneeded expense.
To quote a chief engineer "had the product been design and built properly in the first place, you would not be needed, your waste in the product development cycle"
I guess Boeing had the same thoughts with he 737 MAX?
The implication being those with “test” emphasis in job title or job description provide less value to the company. Correct?
@5ejg - Nothing speaks louder than leaving Honeywell for another job.
There needs to be a pay difference between Band 4 and Band 3. Once Band 4 compensation is reduced they will focus on reducing Band 3 compensation to maintain a difference.
Again, reducing salary at such a low level puts a frown on my face. Now you have 2 reasons to look elsewhere. You’re getting hosed as a Band 3 and there is no incentive to progress to Band 4 since the compensation is lower.
Is this a HR influencer?.
Just found out; Band 4 Principle Engineers with specific job descriptions lost their MIPs. Specifically, if their job descriptions focused on "Test". This occurred at Phoenix E hoping to to keep my team alive and happy.
@4yjx - it doesn't take much energy to type the words, "Band 3's and below have been getting screwed out of bonuses for 10+ yrs; while it takes everyone to make the company goals."
It does feel good to see the Band 4's now feeling the pain we have been feeling at work for a long time now. Promotions were stopped long ago so those that say we should work on getting promoted have no clue to the current and past circumstances at Honeywell. Now we all can commiserate together on getting passed over for bonuses given to those only in power.
You’re putting your energy into the wrong effort. I never understood complaining about a peer making more money. If I wasn’t making enough, I would correct that by demanding a better salary or interviewing into a better paying position. Mass resignations are the best remedy for poor pay. Being happy about reducing the salary of the position you are trying to get promoted into doesn’t make any sense. Your battle is highly misplaced. Reducing salary and benefits at the working level will not get you better salary and benefits at the working level. I can go on....
I left Honeywell a few years ago in Dec. so I didn't receive my MIP. Management was chomping at the bit to get my band 4 status and give it to someone else. To make up for not getting the MIP I didn't do any real work the last 6 weeks I was there and "worked from home." That seemed like a fair trade to me.
If you are OG Honeywell, recall that this all started with the Participative Pay program. They kept our raises lower for 3 years to “fund” it. Then the evil that is Allied Signal took over. They gave the Band 3s a one time bump since under Allied they would no longer get it.
if you are PIPed for non-technical improvement, challenge and ask if your manager is competent to adjudicate you—especially if it is psychological. I got a manager to remove a pip against a coworker because the issue was supposedly behavioral. I asked that a licensed psychologist provide the oversight. PIP dropped.
My own MIP was reduced by 5% a few years ago but I stayed because they also moved me to a role that was less stressful with no weekend or evening work. I know of a few peers that were 10% Band 4s and were moved all the way to Band 3.
The way MIP was verbally explained to me and is sort of covered in HR Direct is "pay at risk". If market pay for the role was $100k, HON pays you $95k with 10% Or 15% or 20% MIP. If you get a high rating and company meets Wall Street goals the payout is over 100% of target. 10% would be $9.5k but if the company does well and you get a 1-2-4 rating the MIP might be $15k so you earn more than market rate. If you get elbow 3-6-7-8-9 then MIP is zero and you earn less than market. MIP isn't just for Directors and Managers. I had it as individual engineer before becoming a manager
I am over 50 and male with a small team I expect them to make me an individual contributor and remove all MIP but I am fine with that. Retirement is close enough
@1rtf, Bravo system is like any other at Hon - there’s two sets of rules. There’s the one the tell you, and then there’s one that is enforced. If you’re not a manager, don’t put one in over $50. Over $50, it requires Director approval. Over something like $200, a VP has to sign it.
The goal is to keep approval requirements high up enough that lower Tier managers won’t elevate the request. As a T5, would you run a $200 discretionary request for talent compensation to a VP in this environment?
The numbers may have shifted a bit since I left, but that’s what is was. I had a manager tell me point-blank not to run a Bravo with a monetary award. Someone in another section had done it and that manager got hammered.
-2wlk.
Pretty much agree with you. One point on the bottom end of band 4:
Unfortunately most principal engineers work harder than the staff engineers who in a lot of cases are TMs that flamed out and really don't want to work. When I was there the principal engineers ran the groups and the TMs took care of the really important tasks like harassing people for EEI/yield and deciding how many and who to PIP in order to keep their VP happy. The staff engineers were a mixed bag of really sharp and still engaged vs. no loads k--ling time to retirement.
I'm a band 4 line manager. The MIP was introduced 15 years ago to remain competitive with similar companies. I've always thought is was ridiculous for folks like me to get the MIP. Take home for me is 5K-8K depending on ALT/HR assessment of the business performance; something I don't see. Personally, if they eliminate it, I won't fight it; not enough money. The worst thing that just happened was pull MIP from Band 4 principle engineers and staff engineers retaining it. This is very unfortunate; these folks performs virtually the same work.
Next week will tell where I land as a manager. I'll get more employees and possibly demoted to band 3. Band 3 is fine, just don't reduce my pay.
-21zh. Tell that to Mahoney . He will laugh. He go his usual bonus for 2016 while we got furloughs, payfreeze, and RIFs. Lets not forget the 5 billion in stock buybacks that year.
They are doing nothing but matching the Lockheed bonus model. Lockheed pays way more up front but offers small bonuses. of course they have a ton of other better benefits.... interviewing at sand hill road next week. fingers crossed.
If it is true (see 2udd post), then it’s just another nail in the coffin to get rid of higher paid US employees. The amount that Honeyhell pays out for MIPS is in the noise compared to the massive profits and exec bonuses that are on the books. They save almost nothing by eliminating MIPS.
I guarantee that a loss of the MIP will cause a mass exodus of high end engineers, which is exactly what Honeyhell wants.
I know of people promoted just last year. But it was all hush -hush and unannounced.
So where and when was this de-MIPPing announced? I see nothing in my email and my manager has not said anything either,
HR and Management are the enemy, not our co-workers (even band 4's).
-2tdn
The Band 4 vs Band 3 war has ended with this move. We are now all the same with no MIPs and no bonuses. We can all be one happy family now.
You bitter band 3's know you'd spend the MIP if they gave it to you (and it's easy to see from this thread why they didn't). Those of you who are into the band3 vs. band4 class warfare should understand that HR and management (not your TMs and principal engineers) created this monster.
Reward? I have been told and others in our group, at tier meetings, "YOU deserve to pat yourself on the back for that." Or how about the "You should feel really good about that." The new self reward system. Look at the highly promoted Bravo system. Give people $50, really? I think it maxes out at maybe $250. After tax this is an insult. Not sure managers ever use this. I recently put a coworker in for $250 for absolutely going above and beyond - a younger guy who does more work than any others in our group and recognized by managers in other areas. DENIED. I mean you save the company $1,000's but they can't give you $250? Going back 15-20 years ago, I received multiple manager rewards $250-500 when going above and beyond.
-1bsy
Who are you fooling? Everyone here knows promotions to Band 4 ended long ago in Aero.
Sorry you couldn't make it into band 4 :-(
Sounds like something AOC would say. Fact is many Tech Managers were engineers working up the ranks to better the engineering process, they could and many have gone back to be engineers and could that work. Many I know do technical work when time allows. And yes they are forced to march per Directors and up, they are not the source of policy changes and don’t like it any more than engineers do.
Yes, I'm celebrating an action from directors and above that will accidentally provide some long term positive benefits. 1. Reduce cost of first and second level management. 2. Create better functioning teams.
I'd say the biggest flaw with the engineering organization is that most of the technical managers are not qualified technically. They could not actually do the work and they don't understand what their reports are doing -- disaster for all. Honeywell went this direction based on misguided business school thoughts from executives that never were engineers. So I agree with the poster that this move is a positive. It will remove some of the unnecessary front line and second line managers; save some money with no noticeable change in work output. It will take one reason away from the artificial reasons of not promoting from band 3 to band 4. Ideally they would use the saved MIP money and do profit sharing for all bands like we used to have when the engineering organization was stronger and wiser. Creating an artificial line for have's and have not's is really a poor way to create a team.
So, rather than complain about the profound lack of opportunity to advance to Band 4, or at all, you would rather celebrate the take away of those that did earn it when times and company where different. Im not arguing that Band 3 does all of the work. It just seem like mis-guided animosity to focus on band 4 and front line managers, when your issues are with directors and above who set policy and marching orders.
So they take away the last carrot and now it's all stick. The only reward for your hard work now is not getting a PIP and being threatened with layoff. Someone in HR thinks this is just great.
When are people going to wise up! Your not part of the club. Ya know the one they beat you with? Open your mouth. Look in! Is there a platinum spoon? NO!!! Not part of the Club!!!!! Leave, Follow or get out of the way..... sigh.
I think it was unfair we band 3 do more work
and get less paid we are technically as good as them
Now you 'petty' Band 4's know how the Band 3's and below have been feeling for years. lol
WOW! what a sad petty little person.
MIP is not enough money to make anyone “fight it out”. People don’t crave The potential for a few percent in return for crazy more work and literal personal health risk. The real result is that top performers will continue to leave.
They talk retention and worker happiness.
They do— remove bonus, one time per year 401k match eliminating time value of money
Say one thing Do something else.
This isn’t about money either. The dollars are trivial.